Europe Test by pterrok

Discussion relating to Battles in Italy

Moderators: AlexS, Run5 Staff, SSG Staff

AA

Postby lord_chaos45 » Sat Jul 02, 2005 9:13 am

Yes, the AA can land grab, however I already knew this when i made the scenario, and it doesnt help the German advance any more than historical. What people have to keep in mind is that each turn is alittle over 2 weeks of time. Thus historically the Germans should have odessa by turn 1 if im correct. How this has worked out in the playtests is that the germans are alittle more delayed in the north/center, butend up ahead of schedule in the south by taking kiev ahead of history. If you dont allow some of the German units to land grab then the german advance becomes much slower, and then the russians get a huge ground edge over history, and dont have to worry about defense as much early on.

Just my thoughts on why things are the way they are in the game lol
lord_chaos45
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:30 am

Postby michl » Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:11 am

Robjess wrote: But your comments leads me to something that I really really like in this scenario.. and that is.. that as you are playing this scenario its kinda cool fighting at Kursk and then thinking of Manny's kursk scenario, or Smolensk and thinking of AtD - or what I like best is that Kalatch is on the map just east of Stalingard - and of course we know that Kalatch is the setting for the Rommel Master of Battle scenario :)

This scenario kind of brings it all together and ties all of the other scenarios that have been released up into one :)


I fully agree - I'm a PC game player and love startegic WWII based games, but I'm not a very savy WWII hisorical guy. I just love to see how all this various scenarious now fit together! You guys made me love this game series even more than ever before!

I'm playing 2 games as Germans against two different players and we are at turn 4. It takes about 2-3 hours to complete a german turn at this time, but it is just fun, Fun, FUN!

THANKS!
Michl
Image Image ImageImageImageImageImage
michl
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 129
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 8:32 pm
Location: Anger-Germany

Postby Robjess » Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:55 pm

Glad you are enjoying the scenario Michl.. Im also playing several games of the scenario.. and my games are quite different too..

And remember.. we are looking for feedback and suggestions for improvements and balance.
User avatar
Robjess
Chief of Staff
Chief of Staff
 
Posts: 5126
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:33 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Postby pterrok » Thu Jul 07, 2005 3:34 am

Allies Turn 6

A last stand in front of Moscow seems possible--until we get flanked and surrounded, that is! I'm trying everything possible to allow reinforcements to come in so that when Winter and the arty bonus comes the Soviets can hold the line toe-to-toe.

I was concentrating more on getting two units with a Regular stacked with a Conscript so no Conscripts could surrender, more than getting AT defense in a hex. The amount of factors SHOULD mean the Axis won't have many (if any) overruns since there is that 255 AF limit.

Image

Down south it's all but over, but I did pick off one of the land-grabbing Axis AA units. I also blew the bridges at Azov and Rostov but that was actually a mistake--if the Axis were to leave them blown then I wouldn't be able to rail units up from the south. (Not like there are a ton of them down there, though!)

And I should have gotten the unseen units out of the peninsula to the west since there are no VPs for holding anything--though I DO have some ships and maybe could have tried to launch an invasion of sorts once they scurry into Sevastopol...
User avatar
pterrok
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 1204
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 1:54 am
Location: Shreveport, LA, USA

Postby pterrok » Thu Jul 07, 2005 3:59 am

Axis Turn 7

The final attack before Winter! The CA shows an overrun ONLY way down at the end of the line guarding Moscow--so getting the larger DFs in the hex IS the key thing for the Soviets to do.

Anyway, the Axis had some bad battle luck this turn. Places where there was a non-retreat roll possible seemed to come up that way, so the follow-up thrusts that were being shaped didn't happen. The overall result was that nothing much happened in front of Moscow--the Axis were stopped cold!

However, Leningrad was captured but with much lost of Axis steps--though with the steppes now wide open before the northern army that was irrelevant.

Down south I left a 1 in 6 chance of an overrun failing at Voronezh, so we all know what was rolled! :roll: However, since there were units which had railed up to the front with full fuel tanks last turn, they were able to pocket the entire Voronezh defense--meaning the game is basically over.

Image

To continue the theme some more fast units set out to disrupt the Soviet rails and/or reinforcement hexes and to make things easier for the Axis next turn.

The conclusion is clear:

Starting back on Turn 2 the Soviets must preserve forces at all costs, giving up huge tracts of land to keep units alive.

The Axis would get to this point anyway, but the Soviets would have a LOT more units alive to double-up to prevent overruns and/or could form a line...When you pull back as far as you think you should, pull back two or three hexes more--it won't hurt you and it could save your butt!

By keeping out of the Regular Axis Infantry's way you are forcing him to send his Armor out alone, using up their fuel and maybe getting hit if they catch up with you anyway for an attack. If the Axis sends out lone explorers then you should be able to pick them off while moving back enough to survive until Winter.

I'll play a bit more just to see what happens and then I'll probably restart the Allies Turn 2 and play it with a better understanding of what needs to be done--and in fact, to see if 'run away' makes the Soviets unbeatable! :lol:
User avatar
pterrok
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 1204
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 1:54 am
Location: Shreveport, LA, USA

Leningrad

Postby lord_chaos45 » Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:13 am

One quick note on your playtest.

With the house rules on the fins, they arent allowed to attack past the fort line that is north of leningrad. Thus there is a pretty good chance that leningrad could have been held by the russians in this playtest.

THe main reason for the restrictions on the fins is they were put under political pressure by the allies not to assist the Germans past getting their old territory back or the allies would also declare war on them. Which historically is what saved the fins from conquest by the soviets so not a bad decision on their part.
lord_chaos45
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:30 am

soviet defense

Postby lord_chaos45 » Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:16 am

Another note on this game, is yes a fall back soviet defense is good, but not the only way to play.

From what ive seen the best bet for the soviets is to fall back and fight in bad terrain. As this will not only slow the german advance, but bleed the german formations more so that eventually the attack will slow down. Leningrad, and in front of moscow are the best defense positions for the russians to use. As there are lots of woods and other non-open terrain. In the south it is mainly sticking to the cities and few hills with a picket defense and trying not to lose to many men before winter, as the terrain is completely worthless for defense.

Just my thoughts on how to play the soviets.
lord_chaos45
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:30 am

Postby michl » Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:20 am

pterrok wrote:Allies Turn 6

The amount of factors SHOULD mean the Axis won't have many (if any) overruns since there is that 255 AF limit.
.


pterrok:

Can you please elaborate a little bit on the 255 AF limit:

a.) what is it exactly
b.) where can you see the limit in each scenario
c.) when is it applied

I realized it when surrounding and attacking, that not each new unit added additional attack values.

Thanks,
Michl
Image Image ImageImageImageImageImage
michl
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 129
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 8:32 pm
Location: Anger-Germany

Postby pterrok » Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:46 am

There is a code limit that no matter how many attack factors you put into a battle, only 255 will count. This applies to ALL scenarios in all three Decisive Battles games. SSG knows about it and flirted with changing it but decided against changing it so things wouldn't get unbalanced.

Unfortunately in this scenario where all the units have such large attack factors you hit the limit fairly quickly, as opposed to most SSG scenarios where you have to work at it a bit to get up to 255! :wink: This is further compounded by the fact that units in this scenario have large defense values as well, so you don't hit the maximum 10-1 native odds before getting to 255 AF, either. (Which is what you may be hitting in other scenarios, by the way.)

You'll just have to look at the combat screen and the bar that shows your AF to see if you're at the 255 limit, then right-click on the 'Overrun' section on the upper-left of that part of the Combat Display and view the full odds data to see how close you are and if you could add enough factors to get to the next odds without going past 255. I had some cases where I needed to get to 256 to get the next shift! Arrrgh! :lol:

So then you're left with trying to get another hexside or an Elite unit into the battle if there isn't one in it already...

I actually think this all works out very well in this scenario since it DOES put a premium on getting hexsides--it IS just something you have to be aware of.
User avatar
pterrok
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 1204
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 1:54 am
Location: Shreveport, LA, USA

Postby trojan » Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:15 am

I have read your post with great interest and I wanted share my current game experience - I am playing as the Russians right now with Michl. Even with the warning signs you gave about making an early stand, I have not really fared much better. Just completed turn 5 and he is already closing in on Moscow. I used the following strategies:

- retreat as much as possible -- but always keep a couple of units in the cities in order to delay (they all got killed); I figured you have to delay a little bit.
- I tried to make a couple of minor stands with what I thought to be good defensive positions (rivers bocage etc), but that seems to be useless and deadly

Right now -- I have 144 units killed // Leningrad: I have a defensive line drawn starting with the city going East -- trying to keep a line open to Leningrad -- he is about 4 hexes away but is going to assault this on his next turn // Stalingrad: not threat yet - but the South is wide open // Moscow: I tried to keep a wider defensive line around the city about 5-6 hexes out - but no way; just retreated into the city. Even if I stop him from entering the city - he is going to cut off all the railways and run over all the arrival hexes over the next 3 turns.

Different strategies: I think a complete withdraw in the South would be best -- pretty much all the way to Stalingrad -- if worst comes to worst there, you have a big river and city hexes helping you (don't know how the reinforcements would work). Send units from the South towards Moscow and probably also from Leningrad. In the middle and north - I don't know -- if you just completly withdraw the Germans will be gates of Moscow in full force by turn 4.
trojan
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:32 am

Postby michl » Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:49 pm

pterrok wrote:There is a code limit that no matter how many attack factors you put into a battle, only 255 will count. This applies to ALL scenarios in all three Decisive Battles games. SSG knows about it and flirted with changing it but decided against changing it so things wouldn't get unbalanced.

Unfortunately in this scenario where all the units have such large attack factors you hit the limit fairly quickly, as opposed to most SSG scenarios where you have to work at it a bit to get up to 255! :wink: This is further compounded by the fact that units in this scenario have large defense values as well, so you don't hit the maximum 10-1 native odds before getting to 255 AF, either. (Which is what you may be hitting in other scenarios, by the way.)

You'll just have to look at the combat screen and the bar that shows your AF to see if you're at the 255 limit, then right-click on the 'Overrun' section on the upper-left of that part of the Combat Display and view the full odds data to see how close you are and if you could add enough factors to get to the next odds without going past 255. I had some cases where I needed to get to 256 to get the next shift! Arrrgh! :lol:

So then you're left with trying to get another hexside or an Elite unit into the battle if there isn't one in it already...

I actually think this all works out very well in this scenario since it DOES put a premium on getting hexsides--it IS just something you have to be aware of.


Thanks - pterrok!

I probably forgot about this rule, because I never came into this opportunity in any of the other scenarious.

Michl
Image Image ImageImageImageImageImage
michl
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 129
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 8:32 pm
Location: Anger-Germany

hmm

Postby lord_chaos45 » Thu Jul 07, 2005 5:36 pm

So far in my games, one as axis, and one as the allies.

As the axis my advance has gone pretty good, but I think the new soviet line is going to hold me off long enough for winter to hit. THis being said my losses have also been fairly minimal. Once I get the next turn from robjess I will give a more accurate description and turn number.

As the allies im just finished turn 3 in an interesting game were the Germans invaded england on turn 2. Something as a designer I hadnt really thought about. Which is making me think maybe england needs to be just a tad stronger, but so farthe english defenses are holding. In Russia things are going well for the russians with a nice line from narva to in front of smolensk which is relatively strong for this time period. I must also say my oppenant had some very bad city storming rolls and lost many men to take my city strong points. Losing many 2:1 exchanges without retreats. In the south I have went with a retreat and strongpoint defense which in the next couple turns, I guess I will see how it does. Mainly making my resistence centers in the hills, and manning all of the cities.

So please all of you doing playtests speak up and let us know how the forces are balancing out. This way if we have made one side to weak or the other to strong we can fix it if it is needed.

thanks
lord_chaos45
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:30 am

Postby Robjess » Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:10 pm

I have a whole list of potential changes (which I will discuss with you particularly Lord_chaos) and one of them is the situation with Sealion.
User avatar
Robjess
Chief of Staff
Chief of Staff
 
Posts: 5126
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:33 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Postby michl » Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:35 pm

Just one quick error I noticed - there are two US 11th Arm Divisions in your OOB.

Michl
Image Image ImageImageImageImageImage
michl
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 129
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 8:32 pm
Location: Anger-Germany

oob errors

Postby lord_chaos45 » Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:59 pm

thanks for the info on the duplicate unit. It most likely is a unit, I just forgot to change the name when I pasted the stats to the new counter. I think there are still several pasting errors on the names of similar type units. One of the slovakian units is also duplicate named if I remember correctly, which i noticed when looking at the OOB the other day.

Turn 6 in my game vs robjess just done. German forces just about have the run of southern russia arond kharkov and spreading out to the north and south of there. Leningrad is encircled, but lots of russians encircled in it so prolly not going to be able to storm it anytime soon. Several breakthrough in front of moscow, but still 4 or so hexes away. Will be interesting to see if a new soviet line can be formed to meet the breakthroughs. Last turn of clear weather is turn 7 so this will be a telling turn.

From what im seeing is if the germans min max there moves and attacks the soviets are appearing to be alittle weak. Ive already suggested a couple quick and easy fixes to robjess on this that we might want to pursue.
lord_chaos45
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:30 am

PreviousNext

Return to Battles in Italy Public Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 2 guests

cron