Europe Test by pterrok

Discussion relating to Battles in Italy

Moderators: AlexS, Run5 Staff, SSG Staff

Postby Joe » Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:23 am

RE: The perfect opening German move

This scenario has been made by fans of our great game, not by historians.

If there are some inaccuracies, or if things were amended for game play purposes that’s fine by me.

I am just about to complete the 76 turn On To Paris scenario against Brubaker and the result has almost gone down to the wire.

If this 80 turn scenario goes down to the wire, between 2 players of equal ability, then it will have achieved its goal.

I look forward to playing it
Joe
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 1650
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:32 pm

Postby Robjess » Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:25 am

Joe Im glad you said that.. as thats perfectly right - first and fore most this is a game.. its not a history lesson :)
User avatar
Robjess
Chief of Staff
Chief of Staff
 
Posts: 5126
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:33 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

just read

Postby lord_chaos45 » Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:23 am

If things go about how they did in my own playtest the Germans will gain a ton of ground early on, but will really slow down in the mud of october and throughout the winter. Keep in mind the German replacement rate is much lower than the russians at this stage in the war. Plus the Russians get load of new units almost every turn from turn 3 on. Thus once mud hits the Germans can continue to attack taking horrendous losses, or stabalize the line and let the russians regroup. The combat charts change in bad weather making attacks much more deadly for the attacker.

As this game hasnt been playtested all the way through feedback is very welcome. Most of the units were adjusted from sources I was using and adapted for this system. Which made for alot of changes being need, and hoping that things would come out about right. If the game goes close to historical the Germans should make it all the way to moscow before they are stopped. Thus the Russians should be beaten up very badly right from the start, as thats pretty much what happened. Also as rob said this is mainly a division level game. Each time a unit takes a step of losses you are talking about 2k+ men being lost. So those early victories at the front for the germans are still quite costly in the long run.
lord_chaos45
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:30 am

Postby pterrok » Wed Jun 29, 2005 3:35 am

Joe wrote:RE: The perfect opening German move


:lol:

Joe, Joe, Joe--I know that you hate perfect opening moves, but this is the first time I've played this game! To quote railroad/robber baron Collis P. Huntington:

What is not nailed down is mine. Whatever I can pry loose is not nailed down.


So I was definitely trying to find things that were not nailed down! :lol: If letting me infiltrate like I did would give the Axis an overwhelming advantage right off the bat then the designers need to know it so they can change it.
User avatar
pterrok
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 1204
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 1:54 am
Location: Shreveport, LA, USA

Postby pterrok » Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:08 am

Axis Turn 5

OK, I am a pretty good attacker, but what I'm seeing is that this game is going to catch a LOT of Soviet players sleeping when it comes to defending against good attackers!

I thought I moved back far enough last turn to prevent anything major from happening. The bulk of the German force--his infantry--was right out of the picture in attacking me. I DID have to leave a bit of a gap NW of Kursk, but I DO know how much fuel all the German units have since I'm playing against myself--so I really, REALLY thought it was good enough...

I was already being aggressive with a couple of units by advancing them to the limits of their fuel tanks to flank the force to the north. The arty could move farther but where it stopped it provides defensive coverage for everyone. You can also see how far the line of German Infantry reached on their push towards Kharkov. But when I advanced one of the Axis Armor units towards Kursk I saw the following:

Image

The battle for Kursk was completely different than Manny's Kursk scenario led me to believe! :lol:

Making these overrun attacks with only the German Armor and Motorized units and a couple of Romanian Cavalry, it turned very ugly and very deadly for the Soviets and very beautiful for the Axis. I even got a pleasant surprise when one of the conscript units surrendered--a 20% chance since I had isolated him.

That got me to thinking and I made some attacks up north and by golly, one of the 10% surrender chances for a supported Conscript came through up there!

It was a major disaster of a turn for the Soviets--I would have to go back a couple of turns and pull the Soviet line back even more to begin with so they'll have an army left to defend with at this point in time.

But, there are just two more turns and then Winter sets in, and the regular Axis Infantry is NOT able to get up to the line at all. If the Axis Armor pushes on ahead alone once more they themselves could be in deep trouble--IF the Soviets had anything left to make a counterattack with!

Image

PS--note that I sent one AA unit DEEP within Mother Russia just because I could, and the Armor unit by the Supply truck is also a bit of bait...And yes, I'm usually this aggressive! :P
User avatar
pterrok
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 1204
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 1:54 am
Location: Shreveport, LA, USA

losses

Postby lord_chaos45 » Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:57 am

Just curious as to how many germans you have lost at this point. As being this aggressive I cant imagine your tank forces are anywhere near full strength, esp with the super low replacement rate of german armor units during the early war.
lord_chaos45
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:30 am

Postby pterrok » Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:14 am

Um, I'm a GOOD attacker! :lol: That means I usually leave very little to be counterattacked. I did leave that Rumanian hanging out when rail-grabbing and he's the only casualty so far:

Image

(One of the dead Allies is the British Infantry in Tobruk.)

In this scenario so far it's a fairly simple matter to get a decent amount of defense factors in a hex after the attacks, and the good defensive arty is easy to move up to cover others, AND there is that one Luftwaffe with a 2 defense instead of 1 (the CAS 2, is that a bug it having a defense of 2?) which I made sure to rail to the front ASAP AND since getting even two full strength units in a hex means you get to add two defensive arty pieces...


I don't think I've been too damaged--it hasn't felt onerous yet:

Image

And the dice have been average:

Image

I'm looking at the Soviet Turn 5 right now and there ARE finally some counter-attacking opportunities IF I were to be super-aggressive. I'm trying to see what sort of a line I could make if I made these attacks...

PS--all the screens are from the END of Axis Turn 5.
User avatar
pterrok
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 1204
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 1:54 am
Location: Shreveport, LA, USA

Postby pterrok » Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:42 am

Allies Turn 5

OK, the Soviets FINALLY have a sniff of something to attack! Up north:

Image


Down south:

Image

Starting in the south, the overrun is right out since I'd have to advance into his strength. But that Armor unit by its lonesome looks like fair game--especially since I have to get units in the way over there anyhow! I can surround it and have a 30% chance of killing it if the D2 comes through on the initial attack...Well, I got the D2, but the Elite unit did NOT fail its retreat check and so it sits defiantly there in a circle of Soviets! Sigh.

I DO overrun the AA unit to the north of it and then form up a bit of a line connecting to the encirclement. It won't last very long, though.

Up north there is a chance to kill two units--the Axis is stacked 4, 3 and 3 high in the three hexes, so I can attack the southern-most hex and only one unit would be able to retreat. Note that it's not possible to attack from only the edges to force him to retreat away from his fellows in this instance.

The first attack:

Image

If only the 50% chance of two dice had come through! The unit with three steps retreats and neither of the other two units takes an extra hit on their 50% chance for non-retreat.

Since there is less defense in the stack I hit it again:

Image

I would have accepted an A1-D1R since that could have killed the 8th Panzer division if it failed its non-retreat check--so all I end up getting is the arty killed by non-retreat. It WAS one with a 3 attack so that's a good kill, but it could have been so much better for the Soviets this turn. Sigh.

Now I disperse and make some sort of line--the front line west of Moscow will be hit be the Axis infantry and overrun. But I could NOT afford to give up too much more ground before winter and this will put a lot of OP penalties down in his path.

Image

(This game has the feel of my Soviet play vs Cpt. Feathersword in an AtD game--I need to be playing more like I did as the Soviets vs Twinkle in an AtD game to see a more typical Soviet situation at this point...)
User avatar
pterrok
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 1204
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 1:54 am
Location: Shreveport, LA, USA

Postby Robjess » Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:54 pm

pterrok wrote:The battle for Kursk was completely different than Manny's Kursk scenario led me to believe! :lol:


Of course Manny's Kursk scenario is later in the war isnt it? But your comments leads me to something that I really really like in this scenario.. and that is.. that as you are playing this scenario its kinda cool fighting at Kursk and then thinking of Manny's kursk scenario, or Smolensk and thinking of AtD - or what I like best is that Kalatch is on the map just east of Stalingard - and of course we know that Kalatch is the setting for the Rommel Master of Battle scenario :)

This scenario kind of brings it all together and ties all of the other scenarios that have been released up into one :)
User avatar
Robjess
Chief of Staff
Chief of Staff
 
Posts: 5126
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:33 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Postby pterrok » Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:15 am

Axis Turn 6

Well, by dint of making careful assessments and then running combats in the right order most of the Soviet front magically vanished--but it DID use up most of the Axis OPs and so there wasn't a lot of forward advance.

Next turn is the last turn of Clear weather and then comes the mud. It looks hopeless for the Soviets--will Hitler reach his goal of defeating the Soviet Union quickly and then turn his attention to England? I'll play a couple more turns and see...

Some attacks were made way down south where the Axis Infantry caught up to the retreating Soviets, and one was made up north as well. The siege of Leningrad has begun, though I used the Finns in an attack outside of the city, but the Soviets had withdrawn, so this IS a confusing situation!

Image

Note the northern circled unit--it's an AA that I sent forward to be able to drop my interdictions farther--surprise, surprise! The 6 hexes from the front is calculated from a combat unit and the AA is a support unit and so I gained no benefit from sending him out there. And it didn't close down the reinforcement hex by being next to it, either! :cry:

The southern circled unit is a Rumanian Cavalry--and since the Axis Minors have their own country status, having him go out that far didn't help the Germans drop an interdiction farther out, either! :lol: (Though it did grab a bunch of rail hexes.)
User avatar
pterrok
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 1204
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 1:54 am
Location: Shreveport, LA, USA

looks bad

Postby lord_chaos45 » Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:22 am

wil be interesting to see how the next couple turns come out. Seems your advance is far ahead of schedule all in all. Might need to buff up the soviets alitte, but the next 2 turns should really tell.
lord_chaos45
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:30 am

Postby pterrok » Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:13 pm

I really think this is more a reflection of poor Soviet play at this point--if I had dropped back farther on Turns 3 and 4 I'd have a LOT of units left. This would make more defense factors in stacks on turns 5 and 6 which would keep the Axis from getting those initial overruns which would have prevented them from rampaging ahead like they did.

And looking ahead at next year's turns I see the Soviets start getting an arty bonus and if I had kept some units alive that would make things VERY interesting--counterattacks where they are just trying to inflict step losses on Axis units would be the order of the day!

So I'd be hesitant to beef up the Soviets--the AXIS are going to be hard-pressed as it is if the Soviets play better--i.e run away faster! I mean, the Axis would still be as far as they are now, but the Soviets could have maybe 50 more units still alive--seems beefed-up enough to me!
User avatar
pterrok
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 1204
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 1:54 am
Location: Shreveport, LA, USA

Postby Joe » Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:19 pm

Yes sounds good.

I'll download the scenario soon but I presume the western allies can invade in the latter part of the scenario?
-
Joe
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 1650
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:32 pm

Postby Twinkle » Fri Jul 01, 2005 12:30 am

pterrok wrote:Note the northern circled unit--it's an AA

seems the AA have a bit too many OPs as they certainly should not be able to grab terrain... decrease the OP so that they realistically advance behind the front, preferably over already captured ground...
User avatar
Twinkle
Chief of Staff
Chief of Staff
 
Posts: 2366
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:57 pm
Location: Sweden

Postby pterrok » Fri Jul 01, 2005 2:56 am

Doh! I forgot why I started this test in the first place--to see if the 1-hex Alert radius was too small, allowing the fast units to exploit it. I think so, which is why I've gotten so far, so fast as the Axis. Instead of doing the next turn I made a new start where I did NOT break a 2-hex alert radius--and the results look like this:

Image

The circled units are ones that I had to awaken to do other attacks, and the numbers by the stacks are how many units are in each one. I haven't moved up all the Axis forces, just grabbed land to see what it would look like...(which means that the Axis will actually save some fuel over my first test!)

With a 2-hex radius I would probably try not to wake anything. That's 33 units in aggragate which can be removed by not letting them escape by waking them prematurely! I think I could still encircle/kill them on Turn 2, but my advance would be slowed significantly over the first test. I do NOT think I could capture Kiev on Turn 2--just encircle it--possibly, but possibly not.

However, an aggressive Axis player would still always have the option of deliberately waking some Soviet units to make deeper inroads--but since I was doing that with relatively weak non-combat units, the more Soviets which are awakened means that these land-grabbers would be killed.

So the way to beef up the Soviets is simply to increase the Alert radius to 2, IMHO!

(Twinkle I DO wish SSG would add some code to not allow non-combat units into enemy territory! Contested territory would be fine, which would mean that you would have to send another unit ahead first to convert it and then the non-combat units could follow, but they couldn't get way ahead like that. Or else there would need to be an extra OP penalty for non-combat units to enter non-friendly terrain to allow them to zip around behind your own lines but not get too far into enemy territory. But we digress! :lol: )
User avatar
pterrok
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 1204
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 1:54 am
Location: Shreveport, LA, USA

PreviousNext

Return to Battles in Italy Public Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron