Battles in Italy AAR

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Postby Robjess » Sat May 21, 2005 11:38 pm

I beg to differ.. whilst overall the HG units probably were not considered Elite - there are many historical accounts of how they performed in Sicily. And by all accounts they should be considered elite in this battle.
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Postby Twinkle » Sun May 22, 2005 12:06 am

El Toro wrote:Calling the HG Division hardhitting and experienced, and to have them 'Elite' within the game is far removed from any sort of historical reality IMO.

I only know about their fighting experience in Poland etc 44/45 (albeit as a Korp that included a Fallschirm-Panzerdivision (1 HG, Generalmajor von Necker) and a Fallschirm-Panzergrenadierdivision (2 HG, Oberst Walther)) and not giving them 'Elite' status would be wrong.

Btw; having 'Elite' status is quite easy in the Sicily scenario if you consider the quality of the allied units and so on. You have to recognize that 'Elite' and 'Substandard' status are ways of differentiating units. So whilst I agree with that the HG division was not top-notch at time of Sicily invasion they got the very best training one can get. Real live battle and they had as so far as I know of priority to new equipment and latest tanks.

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/twinkle ;)
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Postby J Campbell » Sun May 22, 2005 2:26 am

I agree with Twinkle. In Numbers, Predictions and War and Understanding War by Trevor N Dupuy the respective combat effectiveness value of the Herman Goering Division in the Italian campaign ( perhaps not relating to Sicily- i would have to find out what 5 engagements they used to get the numbers) the division had the highest CEV rating at 1.49.

in comparison the CEV ratings for other divisions in the theatre are as follows:

CW
1st Inf = .82
46th Inf = .96
56th inf = .60

GER
HG = 1.49
16th PZ = 1.12
3rd PZ = 1.17
29th Pz = .82

US 88th division was the highest ranking higher than 8 out of 12 german divisions it was tested against. the US 45th division ranked lowest with a CEV rating of .72

Note: Since Numbers Predictions and War has been written numerous engagements have been analyzed by Dupuy and his Associates validating the QJM ( now TNDM).

Roughly divide the numbers by 1 to get the relative combat effectiveness of 1 division to another man for man. ie. for a div with CEV 1 against say HG they would require an additional manpower advantage of 1.5 men to be equivalant to HG ( CEV 1.49).
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Postby El Toro » Sun May 22, 2005 3:51 am

I was only referring to the HG Division during Sicily, specifically the opening days of the battle and more so the Gela counterattacks where there was no tank-infantry cooperation, no tactical coordination or understanding, no elan or will to fight, and numerous reports of panic(ie soldiers fleeing to the rear) and chaos. Yes a few weeks into the campaign, after the CO Conrath 'cleaned house', removing inept leaders, and got the troops to gel through exhortion and personal example, the HG Division began to live up to its reputation as a first class fighting unit. It isn't a matter of opinion however, but the facts and views from the characters present, both German and Allied.

I realize DB isn't attempting to be a historical simulation but I admit it was suprising to see the 'Elite' status when reading the AAR. Good writing btw.
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Postby Twinkle » Sun May 22, 2005 4:47 am

El Toro wrote:... where there was no tank-infantry cooperation, no tactical coordination or understanding, no elan or will to fight, and numerous reports of panic(ie soldiers fleeing to the rear) and chaos ...


Not to start a flamewar, but that seems to perfectly describe most if not all of the first month off the Normandy Campaign for the main contributing nations on the allied side. According to most UK, US historians etc... failure of putting armored forces their they were needed seems to be plenty and advancing with both infantry and armor didn’t really work out. Most advancing tank units moved a bit to quick, got shoot up and/or retreated leaving the rest of the pain for the infantry.

But anyway, agreed completely with that HG was not top-notch in the beginning of the Sicily campaign. But all they need to do is to be better then most allied forces in order to be consider 'Elite' in the scenario. Not really so ahistorical in my opinion.

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/twinkle ;)
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Postby El Toro » Sun May 22, 2005 5:55 am

Not sure what connection Allied forces in Normandy have to do with a German Division in Sicily :?: However, implying there is, shows a failure in understanding any sort of military operation and the units involved. Any cursory reading of the Sicily battles will highlight the failure of the HG Division and the reasons why, ie it was not up to standards, whether compared to other German units or the opposing Allied forces. Just out of curiousity, what are the 15th PzG Div and Group Schmalz rated as?
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Postby Fantassin » Sun May 22, 2005 6:49 am

Don't forget that HG Division is 'surprised' for the two first days of the scenario which surely perfectly simulates their 'failure' during the opening days of Sicily campaign.
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Postby Twinkle » Sun May 22, 2005 4:39 pm

El Toro wrote:Not sure what connection Allied forces in Normandy have to do with a German Division in Sicily :?:


Just pointing out that failures in tank/infantry coordination were a common thing, not something unique for HG during its counterattack towards Gela... Not implying anything else...

And as Fantassin points out, the frozen status of it during the first couple of turns reflects the HG divisions failure in counterattacking the Beachhead.

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Re: Battles in Italy AAR Axis Report

Postby Twinkle » Tue May 24, 2005 12:07 am

Axis turn 5 report...

The last couple of hours have been filled with furious attacks on my brave troops and a backstabbing Para drop behind my lines that took out an artillery regiment. The vengeance will be glorious...

Note that the pictures are up as soon as I have them uploaded...)

British sector: some opportunities for attacks but t seems prudent to strengthen my defenses as well as to take out the enemy Para dropped in my supply sector.

The 1st Parachute brigade should in fact be an easy target as it suffered serious losses during the drop. After taking them as prisoner some attacks on the other British units. Seeing three brigades grouped together in the open terrain is fun (odds 7-1, plain terrain, overrun, 100% two dice), and ended with the offending units pushed back taking a lot of damage.

Image
(start of turn)

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(end of turn)

US main sector: Liverno division withdraw and HG division strengthen its defenses.

Image
(end of turn)

US secondary sector: I am surprised by the lack of enemy presence and notice that one enemy regiment is terribly exposed. But I force myself to keep discipline and concentrate on defending...

Image
(end of turn)

I note as well that all allied forces landed on Sicily is committed. In my opinion a bit of a mistake...

Cheers!,
/twinkle ;)
Last edited by Twinkle on Sat May 28, 2005 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Battles in Italy AAR Axis Report

Postby Robjess » Tue May 24, 2005 6:19 pm

Twinkle wrote:Axis turn 5 report...
..and notice that one enemy regiment is terribly exposed. But I force myself to keep discipline and concentrate on defending...


If you didnt attack it then one would argue that its not too exposed :)
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Allied Combat Report for 15 July 1943 (Turn 6 AAR)

Postby JSS » Thu May 26, 2005 10:47 pm

15 July 1943 -- Turn 6

Day 6 of Operation Husky sees the need for rest and refit as an unshakeable priority. Air forces are given an opportunity to soften up the Axis defenders’ supply position.

American Forces

3d Infantry Division is unable to continue the advance and awaits follow on forces.

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1st Infantry Division and a Combat Command of 2d Armor Division fully envelop an Italian Division. Progress remains slow as the remainder of 2AD prepares for combat operations.

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Commonwealth Forces

Several reports of Panzers on the 1st Parachute Brigade perimeter received and then radio silence...

South of Catania a strong attack is launched to push back the defenders onto the open plains.

Image

Otherwise CW forces rest and stock up supply for a day.

Image

Game Feature of the Day

US forces are unable to meet the minimum odds for combat… this situation is depicted by the combat advisor by a red “low” for battle odds.

Image
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Postby Twinkle » Sat May 28, 2005 12:19 pm

Axis turn 6 report...

Important turn with lots of decisions making... and I so, so very, so extremely much wants to hit the Brits with another attack.

But first thing is to check the damage caused by JJS since I last had radio contact with my troops. The ad fact is that the easternmost attacks by the Englishmen have just about pushed all my troops down to the plains residing south of Catania. Not a good situation! And the US troops made another tough attack on the Liverno division, good guys having hindered the US advance so effectively. JSS also take advantage of the 20+ miles wide gap in my defending line (between Liverno and HG).

1) Time to scout the Agrigento area as I want to try cutting of an entire US division and thus taking the initiative away from my enemy. The first to go in are some Bersagliere units that I easily can be without. Oh holy Mary, AA units, not protected... I am unfortunately only able to put one of them out of action. Note that a major reason for successfully advancing so deep was my pre-take back terrain during last turn. I did some devious terrain grabbing/moving back, and JSS didn’t counter that action.

Image
(start of turn)

Image
(end of turn)

2) Liverno back off to live another day, and some low quality reinforcements will finally reach the front. HG moves north and 15th PzGr try to hold their position. You might notice that I have a lot of ground to cover, with few troops and a lously supply situation.

Image
(end of turn)

3) The need to punish the invading force is strong, even though I am happy just to regain control of the hilly terrain that I lost previously. The first couple of attacks take out the lone 2 step Royal Marine Commando battalion, at a cost of two steps of my own which is clearly acceptable. I am also able to push the enemy out from the hexes I want to have back and re-occupy them. All at a cost of two more steps lost, none caused on the enemy. The CRTs are really defenders CRTs, with the exception of the plain terrain CRT. But note that the plain CRT can cause some serious damage to the attacker as well as the defender.

Image
(start of turn)

Image
(end of turn)

Cheers!,
/twinkle ;)
Last edited by Twinkle on Sat May 28, 2005 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Battles in Italy AAR Axis Report

Postby Twinkle » Sat May 28, 2005 1:27 pm

Robjess wrote:
Twinkle wrote:Axis turn 5 report...
..and notice that one enemy regiment is terribly exposed. But I force myself to keep discipline and concentrate on defending...


If you didnt attack it then one would argue that its not too exposed :)

or maybe just waiting for better oppertunity, nothing like giving your opponent a false sense of scurity... :twisted:
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Allied AAR for 16 July 1943 (Day 7)

Postby JSS » Sun May 29, 2005 8:29 am

16 July 1943 -- Turn 7

Italians have launched a division level counterattack along the Westernmost flank. The anti-air units serving as the flank screen are heavily engaged. Response force is ready and payback will be heavy. On the Easternmost flank, CW 5th Division reports heavy attacks.

American Forces

3d Infantry Division faces pressure on three sides as a halting encirclement operation has been launched against them. While some terrain will have to be returned to the Italians, the opportunity to form a provisional corps with 2d Armor Division will be taken.

Image

Forces successfully re-establish supply lines and destroy an infantry battlegroup. Several other Italian units face encirclement themselves now.

Image

In the center a strong attack is launched against the Italian forces blocking the road to Enna. A Panzer Grenadier battle group is also hit hard without immediate results.

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Image

Limited progress is made, neither side is believed to have taken heavy casualties. Still the defending forces can’t stay in place or they will be crushed when their supply runs out.

Commonwealth Forces

Strong attacks by the Germans have taken their toll. Disturbing reports of hillsides covered with bodies are received. Monty orders regrouping before continued attacks.

Image

Image

Game Feature of the Day

Air interdiction is limited by distance from the frontline. As the naval forces are sitting out the first three weeks of the campaign in safe harbor, the use of air assets is crucial.

Here you can see the limit of interdiction. I’ve pressed very hard toward Enna to enable the US air to interdict the Northernmost choke point.
Image

Image

Since all Axis supply must start in the Northeast tip of the Island (Messina), the three interdictions shown here will limit delivery throughout the island. This does not stop supply by itself but it does create opportunities for units to be out of supply.

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Postby Twinkle » Sun May 29, 2005 11:43 am

Well fact is that the interdictions you see above does indeed stop all supplies flowing south, so next turn supplies will come from supply trucks and wagons, nothing else. And they have a very limited supply range by themselves. However, a good thing is that the next couple of turns will see two reinforcing heavy AA artillery formations with an anti-interdiction range of 2.

Regards
/twinkle ;)
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