Pre-game unit placement

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Pre-game unit placement

Postby Joe » Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:59 pm

Now that we have the idea of Areas of Operation, I have another idea.

Before a game begins, players would place their units on the map.

You could never place the units anywhere, rather, they would need to be placed, with their divisional AO.

It menas when you begin a game, the opponent's units are never in exactly the same place. Who ever goes first cannot begin with a gamey turn.
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Postby Chris Merchant » Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:24 pm

Also, selecting 'Unknown Units' is a good way to stop a gamey first turn.

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Re: Pre-game unit placement

Postby Noakesy » Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:54 pm

Joe wrote:Before a game begins, players would place their units on the map.

You could never place the units anywhere, rather, they would need to be placed, with their divisional AO.

It menas when you begin a game, the opponent's units are never in exactly the same place. Who ever goes first cannot begin with a gamey turn.
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Great idea for PBEM games.
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Postby Graf Starhemberg » Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:41 am

I like the idea, and maybe at least to some degree it is already possible - I was thinking about the airdrop, but I don´t know how well that option would work for general unit placement.
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Postby Carl Myers » Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:37 am

Now that we have the idea of Areas of Operation, I have another idea.
Before a game begins, players would place their units on the map.


I would think the Soviet player would think that this is a great idea, attack unentrenched German units on the first turn.
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Re: Pre-game unit placement

Postby Gregor Whiley » Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:49 am

Joe wrote:Now that we have the idea of Areas of Operation, I have another idea.

Before a game begins, players would place their units on the map.

You could never place the units anywhere, rather, they would need to be placed, with their divisional AO.

It means when you begin a game, the opponent's units are never in exactly the same place. Who ever goes first cannot begin with a gamey turn.
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This is one of those interesting ideas that's easy to write up but which gives Roger a heart attack when he even starts to think about how to implement it. We would have to completely rewrite the way in which the game starts up, and the PBEM system, just to mention a couple of things, Roger could probably add many more items to that list.

At the moment, I think it would be better for us to add variability by continuing to improve the Mystery Variant system, as we have done in the upcoming patch.

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Re: Pre-game unit placement

Postby JSS » Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:30 am

Joe wrote:Now that we have the idea of Areas of Operation, I have another idea.

Before a game begins, players would place their units on the map.

You could never place the units anywhere, rather, they would need to be placed, with their divisional AO.

It menas when you begin a game, the opponent's units are never in exactly the same place. Who ever goes first cannot begin with a gamey turn.
-


Joe,

There are three turn 1 variant features in the game as it is today:

1) Unknown Units (as Chris mentioned above)... my favorite variant feature BTW.

2) Each unit can have a random starting location (uses a base start hex), unit location can be set +/- hexes from the base location (editor choices are 1-10). This is a scenario setting made by the scenario designer. There can be some unintended consequences using the start location variability feature (i.e. terrible holes in defensive lines)... With great care this can be very powerful for providing unpredictability.

3) The variant AOs can add a great deal of change to how things play out.


What I think you're really wanting is a different type of scenario design. There are two good choices available to the scenario designer:

- Allow the defending unit to go first. Here key units can be moved... key is to make the moves somewhat limited so that the scenario design remains essentially unchanged. The On to Rome scenario of BII uses this design.

- Have essentially a meeting engagement. In this design, the two sides do not encounter/attack each other during turn 1. I suppose you could use the AO feature (i.e. a limited turn 1 AO where you can't attack/enter enemy controlled areas, your artillery units don't have enough bullets to attack on turn 1, etc...). The Rommel (Kalach Bridge) Scenario of KP/BiN/BII uses this approach.

BTW, I do not list the airborne feature as a good approach... have tried very hard to make this work and have yet to find a satisfactory use for it toward this goal. The two ways above have always worked much better.

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Postby Joe » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:29 am

If I am moving first in any game, I know EXACTLY the position of each and every enemy unit on the map. This means with practice I can play the "perfect" first turn.

Mystery AO's reduce the effect of the perfect first turn.

Unknown units simply means, from turn 2 onwards, that as my reinforcement units enter the map, I donl;t know their attack and defense strenghs. it has no effect on the perfect first turn.

The solution is that player B chooss from a series of inbuilt set ups. He might choose Set A, or Set B or Set C. Thjs stops the perfect first turn.
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Postby Chris Merchant » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:33 am

Scenario designers could also give the defender plenty of obstacles for the attacker to crunch through on the first turn, ie strongpoints, minefields and deployed units. Depending on setup, it can take a good turn just to reach the defenders line.

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Postby Roger Keating » Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:47 am

In the upcoming, and nearly released, patch there is the opportunity for a scenario designer to have unique unit placements and setups for each variant. There is no way that an enemy player can know exactly what they are facing unless they have studied the variants carefully, and that the designer has left enough knowledge there for it to be tracked down.

The fact that additional formations may be behind the enemy lines should give players a lot to think about.

This system does require a lot of any scenario designer, such as with the AI which has stumped basically all who have ventured into the area. There is no way that I know of to write the editor in a simpler way and have tried to help those who want to go there individual help and encouragement. It does take a great deal of work ...

Many moons ago I actually wrote the basics of the system you have outlined, that is having a completely 'free' turn one in which no combat can take place but you can move all forces in your own territory and entrench or place them at will. Turn two was the real start of the game. The second player had an idea of where the first player placed their units but only within the limits of the normal exposure rules. This happened so long ago that I am unsure of the exact reasons it was abandoned but I distinctly remember that there were significant problems. It should be pointed out here that I have tried a great number of ideas on the system but few of them pan out in the long run. Heart attacks aside, I am always willing to listen to a reasoned argument.

After that experiment I tried a random approach to the placement of units at the start of the game. This still remains in the editor and is used in Market Garden to place some Axis forces. The problem here is that I am but one person and cloning technology is still so antiquated. I just hope that what I am working on now wil be accepted for what it is .. a chance to play quality scenarios with friends from around the world.

I certainly wish all the readers of this forum a Happy New Year ... and many wins of course.
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