Hex control bug?

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Hex control bug?

Postby Tempest » Thu Jan 01, 2004 9:54 am

Per 6.6.5 in the manual, "Any enemy controlled hex which is adjacent to friendly units but not to enemy units is converted to friendly control" , with the previous sentence implying that this occurs at the end of the friendly player turn. This does not occur if a hex X, enemy controlled at the start of the friendly player turn with an enemy unit adjacent (or occupying the hex), has the enemy unit eliminated or retreated from its adjacent position. Even though hex X is solely in a friendly ZOC at the end of the friendly player turn, the hex will remain enemy controlled in the subsequent enemy player turn. Hex X will, however, transition to friendly control if a friendly unit moves up to place a ZOC on hex X after the dislodging combat.
Given the importance of friendly/enemy hex control on allowing entrenchment and detachments plus the additional OP point penalties for movement, was this mechanic per design intent or an error in the hex control algorithm?

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Postby Brubaker » Fri Jan 02, 2004 9:34 am

Hi Tempest

I have not checked the text of the manual but I think the line should read:

"Any enemy controlled hex which is adjacent to friendly units but not to enemy units is converted to friendly control" I think also that this transition occurs at the end of a player's turn, not the beginning.

So in your example, hex X is enemy conrolled with a unit in it. You dislodge the unit therefore presuming leaving the hex empty (no combat remnants or detachments or minefields etc?). The frontline would now indicate that the hex is contested ie. both sides claim ownership.

At the end of your turn the enemy should see the hex become in your control if he has no units adjacent to the hex or any of the above mentioned stuff in it.

If you dislodged the enemy unit and didn't destroy it, then by default it will still be adjacent somewhere to said hex. This would stop you gaining control.

Only be moving into it, as you have stated, can your side 'convert' the hex at the end of your turn.

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Postby Tempest » Fri Jan 02, 2004 11:08 am

Brubaker,

Thanks for the response and correction. I misquoted the manual and have edited the posting to correctly say "friendly" rather than "enemy".
The game mechanic behavior you stated in your response comments is correctly implemented; the bug is illustrated in your comment that "At the end of your turn the enemy should see the hex become in your control if he has no units adjacent to the hex or any of the above mentioned stuff in it.". This does not happen.
The thrust of the bug is that an enemy controlled hex (whether occupied by enemy units or in a contested state) that becomes solely in the zoc of friendly units as a result of combat will not convert to friendly control at the end of the friendly player turn. A friendly unit must move to place the subject hex in its zoc after the combat which placed the hex in an uncontested state for the friendly conversion to occur; the zoc(s) of the unit(s) which instigated the combat will not.
I became aware of this problem when I'd eliminated an enemy unit and (with no surviving enemy units within 2 hexes of the spot) saw my opponet move up and entrench in the elimination hex on his turn. I now make sure I have a unit to move up and place affected hexes into a friendly zoc after the combat.
I'm hoping someone at SSG will answer whether this behavior is per design intent or a bug which will hopefully be fixed in a later patch or at least BIN. If by design intent, the behavior should be documented correctly and if (as I strongly suspect) a bug, fixed.

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Postby Nickel » Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:11 pm

I have had a similar problem in AtD. I surrounded two enemy units that were in adjacent hexes. The nearest enemy units to my surrounding units were 2 hexes away. I eliminated the 2 units and saw no residual delay markers in the hexes. I moved a unit through the first of these hexes and nothing happened to the front line so I moved it into the second overrun hex. Still no change in the front line. Am I reading the rules wrong or should those hexes have reverted to my control. Worse still, they seemed to still impose some kind of movement penalty on the units I used in the overrun. I believe I have the turn saved and could replay it step by step if needed.
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Postby Tempest » Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:43 pm

The game behavior you detailed sounds correct. If you moved units into the overrun hexes, they will transition to your control but not until the beginning of the enemy turn; hexes that start the friendly turn in enemy control cannot be converted to friendly control in that friendly turn. Also,
you would have seen OP penalties in the overrun hexes for a number of reasons (enemy control, combat steps eliminated, possibly artillery). I have a recent post on the Matrix Games forum that details these OP penalties.

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Postby JSS » Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:51 pm

Tempest:

Was there a combat remnant in the elimination hex? I haven't looked at remnants and their effect on hex ownership.

What you saw may also be a question of turn housekeeping. The manual does not state WHEN the next to friendly, not next to enemy unit hex changes status. It may well be after the next enemy turn. Will conduct some tests on this.

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Postby Nickel » Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:55 pm

I may be incorrect, but in the earlier ver of TAO, I don't believe this was the case. I seem to remember that once a unit was elimnated and you moved a friendly into that hex the hex reverted to friendly control during the turn. SSG/ Designers is my memory faulty? I have no way to check because I run XP so TAO 2.40 does not run.
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Postby JSS » Fri Jan 02, 2004 1:19 pm

Tempest,

{Edit Note: These comments are based on tests not considering impact of movement as hex ownership trigger and as such are inaccurate.}

There must have been a combat remnant in the hex. Next to friendly, not next to enemy converts to friendly control at the end of your turn, enemy cannot reoccupy and entrench...

When there is a combat remnant in the hex (next to friendly, not next to enemy) it does not convert... enemy can reoccupy and entrench.

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Postby Tempest » Fri Jan 02, 2004 1:39 pm

JSS,

No, the problem exists with no combat remnant involved. Try this quick test; start a TAO3 game, move German units next to the US 99th unit near Losheim(hex 50,19) away, move up German units to east of Losheim and attack Losheim at max odds(no combat remnant will remain). End Axis turn. Start Allied turn and observe that Losheim is still Allied controlled. Confirm the Allied control by moving the 99th unit into Losheim and entrenching.
I suspect the algorithm for hex control only checks for changes during movement. If the condition for hex control change is caused by combat rather than movement, it misses it.

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Postby JSS » Fri Jan 02, 2004 1:48 pm

Tempest,

Ran that test and could not entrench entrench 394 Inf Reg of 99ID. This is in v1.11. Hex control of Loshiem changed before the Allied turn started.

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Postby JSS » Fri Jan 02, 2004 1:57 pm

Tempest,

I see the issue with movement and the hex.

When I tested this with 9Fj Reg attacking, then moving out of the way there is hex ownership change.

When I used your sequence, moved 9 Fj out of the way and then attacked (without moving any of the other units next to Loshiem) there was no hex change. Hex ownership change appears to definitely be tied to movement.

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Postby JSS » Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:06 pm

Nick,

Did you have any problem with hex control in the next enemy turn? Not sure what the problem was... is it that the red frontline trace didn't move?

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Postby Brubaker » Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:08 pm

Hi Tempest

I ran your test and you are indeed correct.

First of all, I thought I had it licked bacause it seemed that using artillery in the combat causes combat residue and therefore the additional Op penalty may have been causing the situation.

But in fact if you do the combat with just pure infantry you get the same result without combat residue.

Strangely, I have found also that by moving any unit AWAY from the combat then allows Loshiem to have a zone of control placed in it. Very strange indeed.

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Postby Nickel » Sun Jan 04, 2004 3:20 am

JSS,
Don't know because I retreated so I could drop delay markers, started the Axis turn and didn't pay close attention. I will rerun and see what happens.
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Postby Nickel » Sun Jan 04, 2004 5:05 am

I have replayed this section of the turn and the zone of control does not change where the enemy units died nor do any of the enemy path of advance hexes revert to my control when I move into them after the overrun attack is complete. What I find really interesting is that the hexes that my surrounding units moved into, in order to isolate the enemy units, do not not revert to my moving units control. I turned on the hex penalty option while I did this and there was no change. I have saved 3 small jpgs (less than 50kb) views of this action if someone would like to see them.
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