historical results?

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historical results?

Postby BossGnome » Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:24 am

Hi,

I was just wondering what kind of results people have had with this 20 turn scenario so far. Over on the Matrix forums, I read some complaints that it was much too easy for the german to advance, as the historical result saw the german armies stopped just short of Smolensk. Reading the "official" ATD2 AAR, I realized that the germans made it to Vyazma in that one!!

What do you think?
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Postby Roger Keating » Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:26 am

I have played a good number of games testing this scenario and, although I am only the programmer, I have seen results go in a number of directions. A good Russian player can cause a German player a great deal of problems and games in that state generally end in a resignation.

It is possible for the German player to advance to the edge of the board on turn 20 but it does require a bit of luck. In the game I played with Tempest, the AAR, I managed to cut off his reinforcements making his work a lot tougher.

Both sides have tremendous flexibility in what they will do and how they do it. If they choose incorrectly it can end the scenario very quickly.

I suggest that you play a few games and put your own thoughts down in these forums.

While this is designed as an historical scenario we do not try to get the perfect historical result. Rather we want to get the feel of the time and to represent the struggle that went on. We do feel we have accomplished this.
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Postby Abwehr » Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:36 pm

In the stock Kharkov scenario, a historical result in the early stages was unlikely because the Soviets had a good chance of moving on Dnepropetrovsk, and in the later stages the Germans could move on Izyum with relative ease if they did not capture Barvenkovo. However, overall a historical result was more or less possible.

In ATD2, I feel a historical result is almost impossible to achieve against a German player who knows what he's doing. One of the main reasons is that Soviet units drop like flies, don't come back and if they come back, in many cases have to come back in Smolensk. Soviet casualties will, by definition, be unhistorically high.

That's why in the variant I'm working on, all Soviet non-4th Army regimental units will have a life. One of the main features of the battle was that the Germans didn't bring enough infantry to completely seal off pockets, so Soviet units could move to the gaps, which is why cadres of the Soviet units will return.

The weather is also too good, but that's more difficult to adjust. I could make some days "bad" weather days, but in that case people can build a strategy around it, so I prefer random weather. There's a 40% chance of cloudy/rainy weather and a 40% chance for wet soil/mud when the weather's bad. I've also made some other changes that will be revealed when the variant is released.

All in all, I think the variant I'm working on will allow the Soviet player to be able to recover from some mistakes and still come close to a historical result.
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Postby hank » Thu May 17, 2012 9:28 am

I've been a long time player of SSG games. I recently loaded Kharkov / AtD 2 (the latest release) and played through a scenario.

I had a 644 pt advantage as the Axis Player in the last turn; nothing happened in the last turn that would change the score. ... no lost units, etc. Yet when the final total was displayed there was only a 249 pt advantage for the Axis. a draw. ... when I should have had a win.

That is a big swing when nothing happens during the last turn.

see next post for final
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Postby JSS » Thu May 17, 2012 11:28 am

Hank,

Sounds like the Soviets still held four of the 100 VP hexes. The Eastern-most VP locations each bring 100 points on turn 20 for the Soviet player; so if the Soviets (player 2) earned 4x100 VPs, the book-keeping would add 400 pts for the Soviets at the end of its turn 20.

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Postby hank » Thu May 17, 2012 12:30 pm

Exactly ... so why does the game tell you:

"Axis is winning by 639
if no further casualties or change in territory
Axis will win by 639"

If a player does not dig and evaluate all the positions with point results, you think you've won.

its very misleading.
Last edited by hank on Sat May 19, 2012 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Abwehr » Fri May 18, 2012 12:05 am

The game has issues with final turn scores from time to time. When you capture objectives on the final turn as the second player, you don't get any points either.
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