What happened to ATD2?

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Postby Gregor Whiley » Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:01 am

Abwehr wrote:And the alert triggers, if any, are they available in both variants or will we still have alert units in the OOB that can't ever appear on the map?

Will the scenario have 30 turns or 39 turns?


The scenario length is 30 turns. Because of the way the variant system works, it is best to put all possible units in a single OB with units not wanted in the historical scenario set to turn up after the end of the scenario. That way, when they are called for in variant, its a simple matter to change their arrival turn.

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Postby Abwehr » Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:23 am

ATD 2 has been released, I've bought and downloaded it. It's a small download, less than 90MB.

Impressions will follow.

Who's up for a game?
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Postby Talos » Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:06 am

Quick question before i run the install. Does the update or ATD2 invalidate any current games?
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Invalid games

Postby Carl Myers » Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:18 am

Quick question before i run the install. Does the update or ATD2 invalidate any current games?


Yes.
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Postby Abwehr » Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:22 am

Talos: it's basically Kharkov 1.2+, so yes as Carl said.
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Postby Talos » Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:04 pm

Carl Myers wrote:
Talos wrote:Quote:
Quick question before i run the install. Does the update or ATD2 invalidate any current games?


Yes.


Abwehr wrote:Talos: it's basically Kharkov 1.2+, so yes as Carl said.


Thanks, looks like i will have to wait until i finish my current game before i run the installs.

As one general aptly put it Nuts!! :roll:
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Postby Abwehr » Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:37 am

OK, let me know when you're ready for an ATD2 game as the Germans Talos and I'll send you a Secure setup.

I've made an unofficial fix for the Husky scenario, as it was kind of a mess in the editor.

http://rapidshare.com/files/372760842/Husky.7z.html

There are probably more things that need to be fixed/changed (back), but it's a start.
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Postby Malak » Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:48 am

Sorry Abwehr but did you explain somewhere the purpose of this fix?

Thanks
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Postby Treale » Fri Apr 09, 2010 12:12 am

What's wrong with the Husky Scenario that It needs to be fixed?
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Postby Abwehr » Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:04 am

Malak: check the Matrix forums.

As to what needed to be fixed: there were many mistakes in the editor and some units were missing, I've also increased the initial AO for the Americans. The scenario itself doesn't need a lot of fixing, although the CRT's might need to be less deadly: HG and friends attacked a stack with 2 infantry brigades and an artillery regiment and every British unit died. On the other hand, combat is deadly in the Kharkov/ATD2 engine.
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Postby Gregor Whiley » Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:55 pm

Abwehr wrote:Malak: check the Matrix forums.

As to what needed to be fixed: there were many mistakes in the editor and some units were missing, I've also increased the initial AO for the Americans. The scenario itself doesn't need a lot of fixing, although the CRT's might need to be less deadly: HG and friends attacked a stack with 2 infantry brigades and an artillery regiment and every British unit died. On the other hand, combat is deadly in the Kharkov/ATD2 engine.


I think Abwehr is using his usual forceful language here, in a situation which may not warrant it.

For instance, when I redid the Husky scenario, I didn't want to end up with too many German units, even though a strict reading of the OB might indicate that they need to be there. This is because Italian substandard units have a high chance of surrender, unless there are some more heroic types around to stiffen their resolve.

If there are too many German units in the OB, then this problem disappears, yet the willingness or otherwise of Italian units to fight was a huge problem at this stage of the war, and I want it to remain so for the Axis player in Husky.

As for the combat result referenced above, I think this is exactly the sort of outcome that I wanted when doing the scenario. I never put anything less than a full stack in harms way of HG, hopefully the stack will include an elite unit and maybe some extra anti-tank defence.

The problem for HG is not in mauling or eliminating single Allied stacks, it is whether they can do so without being decimated by Allied air and artillery power and possible counter attacks in the Allied turn. (It also stands to reason that the Axis player should never take his precious panzers within range of naval gunfire). The Allies have lots of units and reasonable numbers of replacements, the Axis don't and therein lies the problem for them.

Everybody brings different philosophies and approaches to scenario design, (even within SSG), so I would never insist that any one way is inherently better than any other.

That being said, redoing old scenarios is in some ways trickier than creating new ones, since some unit values remain the same but others end up with zero or random values in the translation process. Its always possible that I've missed some of these, and will happily fix any such errors in the official scenario.

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Postby Abwehr » Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:28 pm

I think Abwehr is using his usual forceful language here, in a situation which may not warrant it.


I didn't mean to use "forceful language". As I've said on the Matrix Games forums: my design philosophy is different from SSG's.

Even if the handful of units I added were not necessary (and I only added 2 or so Panzer Pionier units and I believe a recon unit), the editor was certainly something of a mess with many units missing their anti-tank effect or other statistics and a number of counters being wrong.

I'm not saying that the scenario, as shipped with the game, is bad. I'm saying it looks like it was rushed as the editor shows some mistakes.
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Postby pete AU » Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:05 pm

My grandparents were from the Netherlands. It seems you are all a bunch of very stoic people.

It was never '"could you please close the door, its cold in here' as we English folks would say.

always

'close the door' end of story.

Grandad was in the dutch resistance and merchant navy in WW2, sadly passed away now and grandma spotted for an AA-gun crew. Tough buggers.
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Postby Abwehr » Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:44 pm

Some people would say Dutchmen are stoic, others would call us blunt. We don't really have a tradition of lengthy polite introductions and the like here. We do say "please" (well, the Dutch word for it, of course), but we're quite "direct" in speech. To people unfamiliar with the Dutch, that might make us look like stuck-up a*holes and of course there are a significant number of a*holes in the Netherlands like in any other country, but most people that might be "blunt" in speech don't mean to offend anyone, it's just the way we talk. It's probably the trader's mentality cultivated for centuries: "Don't say too much, be efficient when you speak and get the message through with a minimum number of unnecessary words/excessive politeness. Next customer"
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Postby Noakesy » Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:37 am

Just got back from hols and bought the game, fancy a go at Husky as I used to enjoy that from BiI. I presume it's not possible to have both the Abwehr version and the SSG one at the same time? :D
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