Kharkov Winter Map

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Kharkov Winter Map

Postby Tzar » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:13 am

Hello all,

New user here but long time fan of SSG games (I'm more known under the same username on the Matrix Games board).

With the recent release of ATD2, I've rediscovered the Decisive Battles on the Eastern Front system and how much fun it is. I'd like now to try my hand at building a scenario. Being a WW2 buff, I have no fear creating OOBs, objectives and so on. But the map making stuff makes me scared a bit and I'd prefer starting from an existing map as much as possible.

I'm thinking about doing a scenario related to the third Kharkov battle in Feb.-March 43. To that end, is there already a winter Kharkov map that exists ? For example, the current Kharkov map of KDOD would probably be fine, but as far as I know the stock map does not support winter.

Thanks
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Postby pete AU » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:29 am

Just use the standard map for now. I'll have a crack at converting the map for you if you get a working scenario going.
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Postby Tzar » Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:27 am

Wow, thanks a lot Pete, that is very much appreciated ! Knowing you're the creator of the Konrad scenario, I know the map would be in good hands :D

OK, so that should put aside the map making issue for now. I guess I can assume that as far as the map goes, I will assume bad ground conditions will mean winter weather. I will concentrate on the scenario details then.

It will take some time since this is my first try but I'll advise as soon as I have something workable.

Thanks again !
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Postby pete AU » Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:36 pm

Good luck with your scenario, if you get stuck lots of people here can help.
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Postby Malak » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:56 pm

Interesting competition… lol … I like competition. :mrgreen:

Welcome Tzar to this forum. I am trying myself to perform four scenarios reusing the Kharkov map but in fact enhancing the Kharkov map since I need room north of Belgorod for operation Star early phase and room on the west side of the map for other purposes.

See this thread:
http://www.ssg.com.au/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5136

This is a long process and it is true I have a life and could not commit to do this everyday. Kharkov map is now enhanced until Poltava. I am now doing the north part until Oboïan with all these rivers and bridges... :evil:

Perhaps people here think I am too slow anyway.

As a welcome gift, I was willing to post here my old Kharkov map for Star Gallop but attachment is limited to 2MB. It is plenty of snow as you wish. If you could send me your email address by PM, I will do so then.

Cheers
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Postby Tzar » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:44 am

That's a kind offer Malak, I'll send you my email by private message and offer you something in return :wink:

Actually, because I also noticed the size of the current Kharkov map is too limited to properly cover the Star operation, and also because I'd rather limit the scope of my endeavour since this is my first scenario ever, I intended to concentrate on the Manstein counteroffensive who recaptured Kharkov from about March 5 to March 23, 1943. I did not want to cover the whole Star operation.

Thanks !

Malak wrote:Interesting competition… lol … I like competition. :mrgreen:

Welcome Tzar to this forum. I am trying myself to perform four scenarios reusing the Kharkov map but in fact enhancing the Kharkov map since I need room north of Belgorod for operation Star early phase and room on the west side of the map for other purposes.

See this thread:
http://www.ssg.com.au/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5136

This is a long process and it is true I have a life and could not commit to do this everyday. Kharkov map is now enhanced until Poltava. I am now doing the north part until Oboïan with all these rivers and bridges... :evil:

Perhaps people here think I am too slow anyway.

As a welcome gift, I was willing to post here my old Kharkov map for Star Gallop but attachment is limited to 2MB. It is plenty of snow as you wish. If you could send me your email address by PM, I will do so then.

Cheers
Tzar
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Postby Malak » Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:09 am

No problem. I finally found a way to attach it to the forum. I save it in JPEG format. Don’t forget to convert it back to BMP format.

Enjoy :D
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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Postby Malak » Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:34 am

Okay, just one strange thing, you need to log in to see the attachment. Otherwise, I personally don’t see it. But, this is perhaps my account. :mrgreen:
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Postby Tzar » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:55 am

Wow, that's top-notch work ! You've started with the Kharkov map and reworked this in Photoshop ? That's real good.

BTW, did you get my PM ? I'm asking because it behaved in a weird way and I am not too sure it was sent.
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Postby Abwehr » Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:22 pm

Looks good Malak!

I'm still editing the Last Victory in Russia/Kharkov 1943 scenario for BiI, so I'm interested in a Kharkov:DotD/ATD2 variant of (part of) the scenario.
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Postby pete AU » Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:01 am

good work on the map - looks great.
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Postby JSS » Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:09 am

Very nice!
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Postby Malak » Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:50 am

Thank you guys. I am glad you like it. But SSG team has done first work with the original map. Without it, it would have been far more difficult.

You know if we are three willing to work on this battle, why not work together on it?

I do not know how this could be done yet. The map must be finished first and this is a work for only one clearly. But, other than that, objectives, units, formations, AO and AI are all splitted files. So, perhaps work could be shared.

I do not know what do you think. But, just let me finish the new map first. :mrgreen:
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Postby Abwehr » Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:20 pm

The main problem, at least as I see it, would be to determine the OOB and the strength of the units included.

The SS was still fairly fresh and it shouldn't be too difficult to find an estimate (or to make an estimate) of the strength of other German formations. The only real puzzle would be figuring out which SS formations had Tigers, as sources don't agree on the issue.

The strength of Soviet formations is pretty sketchy, with what seems like little literature on the subject that isn't in Russian. Aside from Voronezh Front, many Soviet forces started Zvesda/Star well below strength. None of Mobile Group Popov's Tank Corps was close to full strength and many "Tank Brigades" didn't actually have tanks, so they functioned like a reinforced Motorised Rifle Battalion (the standard Motorised Rifle Battalion+brigade support assets). The Tank Brigades that did have tanks often drove around in tracked coffins (T60's, T70's). By the time the battle reached Kharkov, the Tank Corps were further depleted.

Check this link: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=159214

Many "Rifle Divisions" would be about battalion size by this time too.

I have yet to find an accurate source on Voronezh Front tank strength, I might have to purchase a few Glantz books for that.
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Postby Tzar » Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:34 pm

Agree with you Abwehr, figuring out the exact composition of forces isn't going to be easy. The best that can be done is extrapolate and make assumptions that are reasonable as possible.

We indeed know that the SS Panzer Korps was pretty fresh (even though some parts of Das Reich and LAH had to defend against the Soviet advance in the first stages of Star).

The Soviets were of course below strength at that point. But even in books such as Glantz's "From the Don to the Dnepr" that I own, he does not provide much details on this. He provides overall strength of the Voronezh front in men and tanks, so you can step backward and figure out an average strength per rifle divisions and tank corps. But it's going to be a ballpark estimate.

My point of view on this is that in the end, I'm looking less for exacting accurateness of the OOB than getting an enjoyable scenario to play, so balancing OOBs is always required as long as you don't stray away too unrealistically from the historic situation.

As for sharing the work, I'm not too sure exactly how to do this. I'd rather think that we should share information about how we're doing this, sources of info that could be useful from everyone. We can especially help each other test our scenarios. Testing and balancing is probably the longest thing to do and having some external feedback helps.
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