Soviet OOB for scenario

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Soviet OOB for scenario

Postby TreadHead » Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:34 am

Greetings! I've not posted here before so let me introduce myself: I've been wargaming on and off for 30 years, mostly WW2. I have the following from SSG: KP, BiI, and Kharkov. Being married with a family and lucky enough to be working full time, life is pretty full so I have precious little time for PBEM games - rather than let people down I just play against the AI - which is very good in Kharkov!

I am very impressed with Kharkov as an engine, the AO system is something that is imho crucial for doing accurate historical scenarios. As an IT type, the AI system looks good too and something I could enjoy doing for a scenario.

So I'm considering creating a scenario, since I'm reading about the Soviet operation Gallop (Jan-Feb 1943) at the moment I figured why not that. Coincidentally it occurred mostly over the same ground as the Kharkov scenario.

I want to be accurate as possible with OOBs. German OOBs are fairly easy to find out down to regimental level. However Soviet is a different thing entirely. So many references are happy to list the Divisions that were part of different armies and fronts, but the composition of these divisions is rare information. I'm sure I'm not telling anyone here anything new :)

Out of approx. 50 divisions I've got the composition of a dozen or so. Often these compositions are only accurate to within 6 months so I don't know how correct they are for the time of the scenario. I would rather not resort to naming regiments 266/1 ; 266/2 ; 266/3 etc

Being an optimist and figuring others here will have been down this path, I'm wondering can anyone help with a good reference site that lists the regiments that made up particular Soviet Rifle Divisions ; Guards Rifle Divisions, and Cavalry Divisions ?

cheers
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Postby J Campbell » Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:57 pm

I am wondering if it is in David Glantz's "From Don to the Dnepr" book. If not that then you could try Nafzinger-there is a website page with alot of data-you would need to order the specific set you wanted i believe.
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Re: Soviet OOB for scenario

Postby Malak » Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:59 am

TreadHead wrote:I want to be accurate as possible with OOBs. German OOBs are fairly easy to find out down to regimental level. However Soviet is a different thing entirely. So many references are happy to list the Divisions that were part of different armies and fronts, but the composition of these divisions is rare information. I'm sure I'm not telling anyone here anything new :)

You are indeed summarizing all my problem… Even in David Glantz's "From Don to the Dnepr" book, the order of battle is only until division level.
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Postby TreadHead » Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:45 am

Thanks guys, yes I've got Glantz's Don to Dnepr and although great for how the operations were planned and proceeded, it's one of his earlier works and the OOBs are indeed only to divisional level.

I didn't know about the nafzinger site, thanks J Cambell

Malak perhaps we can exchange lists of the formations we're interested in, you never know I might be able to fill in a couple blanks. cheers
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Postby troutie » Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:52 am

Perhaps this information can help.
George F. Nafziger publishes a large range of OBs for WW2. There are some 11 volumes on Soviet formations (divisions, brigades and corps mostly) and the details on internal organisation are about 98% accurate as best as I can make out. I rely on them quite a lot.
You can contact George at P.O. Box 1522, West Chester, OH. 45069-1522.
USA.
I'm not sure how much each volume costs these days. You can Google his website for current prices and availability.
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Postby TreadHead » Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:34 pm

Yes a complete set of those volumes would be a fine thing to have.
cheers
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Postby Malak » Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:21 am

TreadHead, I like very much your idea. Operation Rumyantsev could also be made using Kharkov map. Good way to start something. :D
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Postby TreadHead » Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:32 am

Thanks Malak, I've started work on my own map as the terrain covered is slightly different. It's not certain that I will actually create the scenario as I'm still trying to gather the necessary information. One thing though: doing this gives me a heap of respect for all the other scenario designers out there, it's a heap of work even before creating the scenario can begin!
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Postby Malak » Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:39 am

Indeed, creating a scenario is a long thing. But, honestly, this game deserves it. It is great, just lacking more scenarios. From my point of view, the existing map is fine for Star Gallop as long as you start your scenario with a frontline inside it. Feb 5th looks like a good opportunity to do that. Why do you think the map is not enough? :?
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Postby TreadHead » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:31 am

Starting with a frontline and ignoring some of the wider manoeuvring (e.g. south-east of Dnepropetrovsk , also around Stalino) would be a way of squeezing it in to the Kharkov map.

From my notes, and Glantz's maps, the area of operations for Gallop extends further south than the Kharkov map, and not as far north.
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Postby TreadHead » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:35 am

PS I agree with you very much that the game deserves more scenarios, I much prefer the interface and way of doing things in Kharkov. It's disappointing there are not more scenarios, hopefully eventually I can help remedy that - but it won't be any time soon.
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Postby Malak » Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:37 am

On my side, I will try to make the Operation Rumyantsev scenario. For Star Gallop, this scenario also interests me. I see now your point with the map. If you want some help to do it, I am in.

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Postby TreadHead » Mon May 04, 2009 10:12 am

Thanks very much Malak, I'm sure I will be calling on you for help. Have you any ideas for how your map art will look - are you going to emulate the Kharkov map, or have something more basic?
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Postby Malak » Wed May 06, 2009 7:00 am

For Rumyantsev, I will take the Kharkov map as it is (summer time).

For Star Gallop, I am thinking that we could take the bad weather Kharkov map to simulate mud of end of March. Good weather map will be the one on which we will need to apply some snow. Just hope it will look good.

So far, I am more playing with soviet unit counters.
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Postby Malak » Sat May 30, 2009 11:20 pm

Analysing the OOB for Rumyantsev, I think more and more the actual map is not enough. Indeed, it is about the OOB for Citadelle. So, if I could move the Kharkov map to the south and add the missing part until Oboïan, I will have the map for both operations.

I remember Roger told me he could do this. But, I will stop this scenario for now since I am doing too much things at the same time.

I will now concentrate on Star Gallop operation. I am trying a version with the actual size of the Kharkov map since this is, from my point of view, the most interesting part of Manstein’s counterattack.

I have all Russian OOB except for the 60th and 61st Guards Rifle Division. If someone could help me to find it (regiment and battalion levels only), it would be great.

Here is the Voronezh Front OOB:
Image

I have applied some snow on the Kharkop map. I hope you will like it. Here is a sample:
Image

Lot of things are remaining to be done…
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