Kharkov AAR 1 Final Talos Soviets

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Postby Talos » Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:00 am

Kharkov Soviet Turn 8

The Soviet perimeter is still expanding in a couple of places, and with the expected arrival of the large number of replacements next turn (courtesy of Barevkovo and Izyum), it should allow Soviet forces to recover up to full strength as well as proving a useful reserve for later in the game.

South Western Front
Northern Sector 21st, 28th, and 38th Armies

In the 21st Army sector troops revert to a defensive posture and spend their time refitting and relocating into their defensive positions in preparation for the expected assault by 29th Korps.
Turn 8 Start North
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The 28th Army continues to dig-in about Kharkov as other Armies have higher priorities for the next few turns, it maybe after 38th Army has finished its mopping up operations it will take over some of the 28th Army defensive duties or help in the launch of an offensive to take Kharkov block by block.

The 3rd Guards Cavalry Corps spends mots of its time refitting or setting up defensive positions with the units of 28th Army.

The 38th Army continues its reduction of 51st Korps units as another regiment is destroyed, other units units not engaged in the battle start to clear the Chuguyev pocket and note some German units trying to escape east. Next turn the plan is try and reduce the last units of 51st Korps north of the pocket, finish clearing the pocket and track down any remaining German stragglers.
Turn 8 End North
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Turn 8 Kills north
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Central Sector 6th Army, Army Group Bobkin, 21st and 23rd Tank Corps and 2nd and 6th Cavalry Corps
6th Army and 21st and 23rd Tank Corps

6th Army units in co-operation with SW front reserves and 21st Tank Corps remove two small pockets of resistance. The plan will be for next turn to remove the last remaining pocket of 8th Korps troops along the river and then dispatch the troops elsewhere.
Turn 8 Start Center
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The 23rd Tank Corp is sent south to the Krosnograd region,though the expected assault on Lannya does not happen due to lack of arty success, their will be another chance next turn.
Turn 8 End Center
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Army Group Bobkin plus the 2nd and 6th Cavalry Corps
German forces continue to push forward though slowly and covered by massive amounts of interdiction in the AG Bobkin sector about Perechipino, though the plan was to take up defensive positions, there are some options for counter attacking that can not be wasted.
Turn 8 Start South west
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The armour and cavalry attack two regiments of the Romanian 20th Division, which results in two regiments being destroyed, though some cavalry are out on a bit of a limb because of this. Some interdiction is placed to help them out, and they maybe OK as the 389th and Wiking have been spotted further to the east pounding on 57th Army.
Turn 8 End South west
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Turn 8 Kills South west
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Southern Front
Southern Sector 57th and 9th Armies
Turn 8 Start South east

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9th Army
The 9th Army reverts to a defensive posture behind the major river, though the chance is taken to destroy a German strong point. It will await on opportunities after 1st Pz Army has headed north with the expected reinforcements from the Southern front.

57th Army
An unexpected development as the 57th Army is made the major focus of German operations in the south with lavish use of air power and arty used in the assault which cause havoc. This though may have a hidden benefit as it means the 389th and Wiking are not concentrating further to the west against AG Bobkin and the VP locations.

A small counter attack is launched which results in the destruction of the engineer for the 389th but otherwise i expect 57th Army to be severely reduced in strength next turn as a number of units are down to one step.
Turn 8 End South east
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Turn 8 Kills South east
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At the end of the turn the Soviets had a lead of some 3,100 – 3,200 Vp's.
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Postby Spuddy64 » Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:40 am

I was hoping Talos would have the compassion to not share the score :oops:

Just kidding, Post on Talos :)
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Postby Carl Myers » Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:28 am

At the end of the turn the Soviets had a lead of some 3,100 – 3,200 Vp's.


Rubbing salt into the wounds, Talos is a baaaad boy, for shame :lol: :wink:
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Postby Talos » Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:43 am

Kharkov Soviet Turn 9

South Western Front
Northern Sector 21st, 28th, and 38th Armies

Spuddy is preparing his his counter attack in the north against the defensive positions that were setup last turn to block any relief attempt of Kharkov. Some of the remaining elements of the 23rd Pz Division and the alert 57th Division are spotted, but no attacks are launched.
Turn 9 Start North
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Elements of the 21st, 28th, 6th Armies, 3rd Cavalry Corps and Front Reserves now form a strong defensive line in depth to the north of Kharkov along the expected route of the German attack.

The 28th Army continues to dig-in about Kharkov and is reinforced by some units of the 38th Army and front reserves. Units of the 38th Army and 21st Tank Corps attack the remaining hold out in the north of the 51st Korps but do not get very far, the attack will have to be continued next turn with more troops.

Lastly two armour units of 38th Army clear out the Chuguyev pocket and track down the remaining German units (51st Korps HQ, and the recon and pinoneer's of the 44th ID).
Turn 9 End North
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Central Sector 6th Army, Army Group Bobkin, 21st and 23rd Tank Corps and 2nd and 6th Cavalry Corps
6th Army and 21st and 23rd Tank Corps

Nothing much happens in the 6th Army sector though German pressure is starting to build down south against the forces of AG Bobkin.
Turn 9 Start Center
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6th Army and attached forces launch an attack on the last unit of 8th Korps (Gruppe Witte) long the river and force it to surrender after it is brought down to one step.
Turn 9 End Center
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Army Group Bobkin plus the 2nd and 6th Cavalry Corps
Turn 9 Start South west

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German forces are still pressing in against AG Bobkin, but after some scouting by the attached cavalry it maybe that they are doing to quickly as some Romanian units are spotted in an exposed positions, two regiments to the west and a cavalry unit to the east. The decision is taken to launch a short sharp counter attack and this results in the destruction of the units in question, but also costs the attacking forces a cavalry regiment and leaving 2-3 more in an exposed position, but still a worthwhile effort.
Turn 9 End South west
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Turn 9 Kills South west
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Southern Front
Southern Sector 57th and 9th Armies
9th Army

German troops have been pushing forward, but again there is a chance to attack two exposed regiments of the 257th ID.
Turn 9 Start South east
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The attacks go in in a series of low odds attacks which destroy both regiments and one permanently as its the second time its been destroyed.

57th Army
After last turn the 57th Army has been left alone and the units of the Army take the chance to disengage from the German units and fall back west towards their supply route.
Turn 9 End South east
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Turn 9 Kills South east
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At the end of the turn the Soviets had a lead of some 3,400 Vp's. The rest of the game will likely depend on what German forces do though i may get the forces in places to attack Khakov. The main point of pressure is now in the south west as i will try and hold onto both Perechipino and Krosnograd. In the south east i will need to make a decision on trying to stop the 1st Pz Army north of Izyum at the major river, this maybe possible if the 57th Army and 9th Armies can join and i dispatch the Southern Front reserve units as well, these could be reinforced by the arty of the 38th Army to make life difficult for 1st Pz.
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Postby Talos » Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:46 am

Carl Myers wrote:
At the end of the turn the Soviets had a lead of some 3,100 – 3,200 Vp's.


Rubbing salt into the wounds, Talos is a baaaad boy, for shame :lol: :wink:


It only gets worse :twisted: :wink: :wink:
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Postby Spuddy64 » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:16 am

Still not much to comment on with the supurb job Talos is doing with his blow by blow account. Here is a pic of the situation around Izyum, with very little to attack as this powerful force is tied up by the AO
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Postby Talos » Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:27 am

Kharkov Soviet Turn 10

Forgot to take start positions again, so just end and kill screen shots.

South Western Front
Northern Sector 21st, 28th, and 38th Armies

As expected Spuddy starts his counter attack in the north against the defensive positions that were setup last turn to block any relief attempt of Khrakov, with the 23rd Pz and 57th Division. The attacks result in some step losses but otherwise the defensive line holds.

One of the regiments of the 57th Division is in an exposed position, so a counter attack is launched, the attack is preceded by an arty and air bombardment which is only partially successful , but the actual attack destroys the unit with a 12-1 over run attack before all units revert to defensive positions and are reinforced with the all the replacements that have become available.

The 38th Army and the 21st and 23rd Tank Corps now take on the lone hold out in the north of the 51st Korps, and after some prolonged combat (4 attacks) the defenders are over come and destroyed. So i now have a clear path for supplying 6th Army even if the 1st Pz cuts the supply further to the south east north of Izyum.

In the Chuguyev pocket 38th Army units start preparing the ground for an assault on the remaining units of 51st Korps, but can do nothing this turn as all forces were needed to eliminate the hold out to the north.
Turn 10 End North
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Turn 10 Kills North
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Central Sector 6th Army, Army Group Bobkin, 21st and 23rd Tank Corps and 2nd and 6th Cavalry Corps
6th Army and 21st and 23rd Tank Corps

Not much happens in the 6th Army sector and after the attacks are finished with against the 51st Korps, 21st Tank Corps and two rifle divisions are sent south to the Krosnograd sector to help in defensive duties, here and to help out the forces of AG Bobkin.
Turn 10 End Center
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Army Group Bobkin plus the 2nd and 6th Cavalry Corps
Germans units led by Wking attack the Soviet defensive line and after some prolonged combat destroy a rifle regiment and force a retreat to behind the river for the remaining units, but otherwise the line holds.

There are no real opportunities to launch any counter attacks this turn so Soviet forces hole up into their defensive positions and await the inevitable onslaught.
Turn 10 End south west
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Turn 10 Kills South west
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Southern Front
Southern Sector 57th and 9th Armies
9th Army

German troops of 44th Korps have pushed forward across the river and have again left themselves open to a counter attack, this time its the 68th Divisions turn.

A series of attacks go in and the result is the Pzjager and recon of the the 68th Division are destroyed and the Infantry regiment is forced to retreat in disorder. After this 9th Army units relocate northwards in preparation for defensive duties north of Izyum to try and allow 57th Army to escape its impending encirclement.

57th Army
57th Army continues to retreat eastwards without any German opposition, as the bulk of forces have to headed west to in the attack on Perechpino.
Turn 10 End South east
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Turn 10 Kills South east
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Postby Spuddy64 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:44 pm

Here is an image of the situation around Kharkov. The city is safe, but too many valuable offensive units were trapped inside the city rendering them useless until the city is relieved. My horable losses back on turn two caused me to give up too much ground too quickly. Talos used his knoledge of the game to quickly surround the city before the KIAd troops copuld respawn and help defend. With all of the OMA reentry spots in his hands they are now stuck in the OMA. I am most certainly not complaining of the game system, only pointing out how well Talos knows and understand the finer points of the game.
With too few troops around Kharkov to liberate the city and the 3rd Mot. and 1st Panzer tied up by their AO I am left with little choice but to probe all around Kharkov in hopes of finding a weak spot. Talos is far too good and none are found.
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Postby Talos » Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:25 am

Kharkov Soviet Turn 11

South Western Front
Northern Sector 21st, 28th, and 38th Armies

Slightly unexpectedly Spuddy continues his attack in the north but further around in the Liptsy sector and force the defenders to retreat with the loss of two rifle regiments, the attacks are led by the 23rd Pz, 57th, 75th and 168th Infantry Divisions plus some support from other German Army assets. Elsewhere in the northern sector things remain quite.
Turn 11 Start North
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Though the attack has been successful in forcing the Soviets out of Liptsy, the German attacks has left a large number of the troops in damaged state and ripe for a counter attack. With this in mind troops of the 21st and 28th Armies plus the 23rd Tank Corps and SW front forces launch a sustained counter attack. The attack severely damages two regiments of the 57th Division, but the most important attacks force the German forces out of Liptsy, which is reoccupied by Soviet forces and also results in the destruction of two regiments from the 75th, one regiment from the 168th, one arty unit and the flak unit of the 29th Korps so a nice net gain in VP's.
Turn 11 End North
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Turn 11 Kills North
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In the Chuguyev pocket 38th Army units find the remaining units of 51st Korps but the preceding arty bombardment does not succeed so the attack is postponed and the troops for the attack are deployed northwards for the moment apart from some guard units to keep the German troops under surveillance.

Central Sector 6th Army, Army Group Bobkin, 21st and 23rd Tank Corps and 2nd and 6th Cavalry Corps
6th Army and 21st and 23rd Tank Corps

Again not much happening in the area about Borki, but a major battle is developing further south in the Lannya and Perechipino area.

Army Group Bobkin plus the 2nd and 6th Cavalry Corps

Germans are now pressing the attack on AG Bobkin and the attached cavalry, and things are getting serious. German attacks now with support of the Romanian 6th Corps launch attacks on the flanks of the defending positions and push the Soviet troops back with some loses (2 rifle and cavalry regiments) and heavy casualties to some of the troops that survive.
Turn 11 Start South east
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Though there is little we can do apart from to withdraw what troops we can from the mess about Perechipino, the opportunity is taken to launch some local counter attacks with the 21st Tank Corps leading the way against some of the Romanians which results in the loss of two regiments and to attack the recon of Wiking which is in an exposed position which is also destroyed. The loss of the recon unit should prove most useful as it will limit what can be seen by German forces in the future. After the attacks are finished troops fall back to defensive positions and are reinforced by units from 6th Army. In addition air interdiction is used to slow the movement of German units in the vicinity.
Turn 11 End South West
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Turn 11 Kills South west
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Southern Front
Southern Sector 57th and 9th Armies
9th Army & 57th Armies

German forces have done nothing to inhibit the movement of these two armies which makes life a lot easier for the troops on the ground.
Turn 11 Start South east
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Troops of both armies cross the major river north of Izyum and set up strong defensive positions in depth and will try and blunt the advance of 1st Pz Army, they will also be reinforced by some arty of the 38th Army which i hope will make 1st Pz Army cautious in what it does.
Turn 11 End South east
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The reserve forces of the Southern front start to move into position in the south about 44th Korps and will prepare for any opportunity that might present itself especially with the help of the 24th Tank Corps.
Turn 11 VP
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Postby Spuddy64 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:54 am

Serius headway is being made on the the drive to Krasnograd and Lannaya. Sadly though, I feel the game will run out before the Lannaya defenders are relieved. Turn 11 we will have to make our move, here is a pic of the situation

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Postby Talos » Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:25 am

Kharkov Soviet Turn 12

South Western Front
Northern Sector 21st, 28th, and 38th Armies

Slightly unexpectedly Spuddy continues his attack in the north but further around in the Liptsy sector and forces the defenders to retreat, the attacks are led by the 57th, 75th and 168th Infantry Divisions plus some support from other German Army assets. Further to the east Spuddy attacks Staraya Saltov with the 23rd Pz with some help from the 57th Division and captures the town. Otherwise all is quiet in the north.
Turn 12 Start North
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The continuing attacks by Spuddy are a little bit of a surprise as German troops strength is getting low even amongst the 29th Korps forces after last turn. After some thought i decide that the forces at Liptsy will be the priority and Staraya Saltov i will leave alone as i can use the replacements i get from German forces taking it, though I will attack the units next to it. Multiple attacks go in against the forces at Liptsy which are already under strength and the end result is the destruction of two more German regiments and the Pzjager Bn of the 75th Division. As troops advance into the city a the pioneer's of the 168th Division are spotted, and after a successful arty attack ground forces destroy this unit as well.

To the east at Staraya Saltov minimal Soviet forces attack destroying the 2nd Pz Bn of the 23rd Pz for the second time and the recon regiment of the 57th Division. The Mechanised regiment of the 23rd Pz is left alone. Elsewhere a number of Soviet units refit in preparation for next turn while the 23rd Tank Corps is sent south towards Krosnograd.
Turn 12 End North
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Turn 12 Kills North
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Central Sector 6th Army, Army Group Bobkin, 21st and 23rd Tank Corps and 2nd and 6th Cavalry Corps
6th Army and 21st and 23rd Tank Corps

German units have advanced into the center of the map north of Krosnograd along with a push from the south by the 17th Army, this though leaves a number of counter attacking opportunities for Soviet forces.
Turn 12 Start South West
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Units of the 6th Army and 21st and 23rd Tank Corps counter attack and destroy the Stug and AA Bn's of AGS, a regiment of the 305th and 71st Division. After these attacks the two Infantry and Divisions and Tank Corps head south to guard Krosnograd.

Army Group Bobkin plus the 2nd and 6th Cavalry Corps
Germans are now pressing the attacks hard on AG Bobkin and the attached cavalry, the remaining forces in Perechipino have been cut off and a number of units have been lost. The remaining troops counter attack a damaged Romanian regiment and destroy it, while all the troops that can pull back behind the river and sent up new defensive positions. To help the beleaguered troops the red air force makes an appearance and interdiction is spaced about the area to slow German troop movement.
Turn 12 End South west
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In addition with the removal of the remaining German troops to the west it means the Soviet forces can concentrate to the south against the 17th Army.
Turn 12 Kills South west
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Southern Front
Southern Sector 57th and 9th Armies
9th Army & 57th Armies

German forces of the 1st Pz Army have attacked the Soviet defensive positions south of the Chuguyev pocket and made some in roads into the Soviet defenses, to the east 44th Korps mostly takes up defensive positions.
Turn 12 Start South east
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Troops of the 9th and 57th Armies reorder themselves slightly to produce a better defensive position, though German troops will break through the line in about two turns at present rate and i will probable have to retreat what survives to the east.

Further south the Southern front reserve units attack the 44th Korps and destroy two more unit, and then set up defensive positions. All being well there will be another attack here next turn to try and force 44th Korps units back so i can attack cities in the south.
Turn 12 End South east
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Turn 12 Kills South east
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The Soviet lead is still extending despite the loses of troops and cities to the north and I would expect to get above 4,000 Vp's in the near future and that will probable be the winning margin.
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Postby Spuddy64 » Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:16 am

It is impossible not to realize that the game is lost by this point. On one hand I love the AO system, and on the other it frustrates the !#*% out of me. This is by no means a rant, as both sides have AO restrictions and any player who has played this much will know the restrictions imposed on both himself and his adversary. SSG is really on to something here, but there needs to be more trigger options or extremly variable AOs. The fact that both sides no each others restrictions impacts game play. Looking at the image below you can see that I have the required troops to advance and relieve Kharkov, but they are locked up by their AO. You can see that Talos has not even tried to defend the path to Kharkov because he knows I cant advance in that direction.

Image

On to turn 13 and more pain. To continue in this battle really puts a dent in ones self esteem.
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Postby Talos » Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:13 am

Kharkov Soviet Turn 13

South Western Front
Northern Sector 21st, 28th, and 38th Armies

After taking Staraya Saltov German forces now vacate the city and attack units further north, which results in the destruction of two regiments of the 268th RD. Other than this German units seem to be reforming, but am not expecting a great deal to happen between now and the end of the game in the north due to the lack of strength amongst German forces in this region.
Turn 13 Start North
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The newly arriving Soviet forces of the 8th Motorised RD are sent to garrison Staraya Saltov, while the bulk of the 21st and 38th Armies setup strong defensive positions. I also take the chance at this point to combine the SW front attached forces and push further north, there is a faint chance the Belograd might be taken, though unlikely and it should keep Spuddy wondering what my intentions are in the north.

The remaining units of the 38th Army remove themselves from the Chuguyev pocket (as the 1st Pz Army is about to head north) and blow the bridges leading to Chuguyev, while Chuguyev itself is garrisoned strongly in preparation for the coming assault.
Turn 13 End North
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Turn 13 Kills North
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Central Sector 6th Army, Army Group Bobkin, 21st and 23rd Tank Corps and 2nd and 6th Cavalry Corps
6th Army and 21st and 23rd Tank Corps, Army Group Bobkin plus the 2nd and 6th Cavalry Corps

German and allied forces have concentrated on destroying units of AG Bobkin and trying to take Perechipino. The attack on Perechipino failed but all other units in the vicinity have been destroyed, in addition some forces have pushed north but not in any great strength.
Turn 13 Start South West
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The limited forces sent north by Spuddy to reconnoiter the Soviet position have been left open for a counter attack by what remain of AG Bobkin and the cavalry, plus units of 6th Army and the Tank Corps. The counter attacks destroy 4 Romanian infantry and cavalry regiments, 1 AA Bn and a regiment of the German 389th Division. After these attack Soviet forces form strong defensive positions along the river line and await further German probes, it is expected Perechipino will fall next turn as the remaining defenders are in a bad way.
Turn 13 End South west
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Turn 13 Kills South west
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Southern Front
Southern Sector 57th and 9th Armies
9th Army & 57th Armies

German forces from the 1st Pz Army have again attacked north against the Soviet 9th and 57th armies, destroying some units and surrounding others. I will try to pick off what German units I can before i retreat any remaining units to east as the remaining Soviet force are mostly in a bad way. 44th Korps continues to try and press forward in the south, but with out much success.
Turn 13 Start South east
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The attacks by the 9th and 57th armies do not go well and the remaining troops leave their surrounded comrades to their fate. Further south the reserve units of the southern front attack and destroy a Bn of pioneers. In addition i launch a cavalry raid with remaining cavalry of the 5th cavalry corps as it looks like Spuddy has left a gap to get unit across the bridge south west of Izyum. As the first cavalry regiment arrives on the seen it spots the HQ's of the 1st Pz Army and 3 Motorised Korps being guarded by an AA Bn. An immediate attack is launched which destroys the 1st Pz and A Bn, but the 3rd Motorised HQ manges to escape. A useful battle as it helps cut supply to the units further north and the units of 1st Pz will be with out their bonuses for the next couple of turns.
Turn 13 End South east
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Turn 13 Kills South east
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The Soviet lead stays about the same this turn but I would still expect it to get above 4,000 Vp's in the near future and that will probable be the winning margin.
Turn 13 VP's
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Postby Talos » Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:44 am

Spuddy64 wrote:It is impossible not to realize that the game is lost by this point. On one hand I love the AO system, and on the other it frustrates the !#*% out of me. This is by no means a rant, as both sides have AO restrictions and any player who has played this much will know the restrictions imposed on both himself and his adversary. SSG is really on to something here, but there needs to be more trigger options or extremly variable AOs. The fact that both sides no each others restrictions impacts game play. Looking at the image below you can see that I have the required troops to advance and relieve Kharkov, but they are locked up by their AO. You can see that Talos has not even tried to defend the path to Kharkov because he knows I cant advance in that direction.


I happen to agree with Spuddy on this point though for slightly different reasons. After my success in the north i was unable to push onto other objectives, because of the limiting AO's on the Soviet Armies. Certainly if the 21st Army AO had extended after the capture of Liptsy (for instance) then Belograd should have been another objective, as it was their were insufficient resources to make a serious attack in this area. Further south if AO's had changed i would have liked to retreat the 9th and 57th Armies north to cover the south flank of the 38th Army.

I the end each player has to live within the resources he has allocated, making them more variable would help if certain objectives or trigger hexes were captured as it would cause more options to be available to both defender and attacker. In this game i effectively ran out of things to do because of the way the AO's operate, and had to wait in defensive positions especially in the north which is anather to me as i always like to look for ways to cause any opposition to react to me. If Spuddy had more forces left in the north this could have been a real problem.

Back to the AAR.
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Postby Spuddy64 » Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:02 am

Once again little to report as Talos has done a fine job describing the situation. Here is a pic of my futile attempts at relieving Kharkov.

Image

Several attempts have only resulted in 1 or 2 hexes being taken, next turn I will direct the assault elsewhere.
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