What did ATD2 change in Kharkov?

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What did ATD2 change in Kharkov?

Postby Noakesy » Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:32 pm

A quick question. I've just played and lost a game of Kharkov, as Fritz, in three turns (well, I surrendered as I had lost over 30 units in these few turns). No qualms about my opponent who just absolutely obliterated my poor shabbily commanded forces.

However, I did notice that the russkis had got a long way in one turn, and had a quick look at the game again from that side (I'd just lost against Strax too, so was finding consecutive defeats a bit demoralising :wink: :D ).
- I am sure that it used to be possible as Ivan to get to column 29 in the area east of kharkov. I now see that with one or two bunkers removed my armour can actually attack the suburbs of Kharkov.
- In the south my T34s can launch attacks on Borki. Has something changed or have I just not noticed this previously?
- I also find now that if Kharkov gets besieged (as mr Strax recently did to me), that I can't move the units within Kharkov if there are big stacks of Russkis adjacent. Again, is this new (I seem to recall Abwehr and others mentioning something about this) or am I just being given a decent thrashing by better players?

Not taking anything away from my opponents at all, just looks like something has changed.

Cheers
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Postby Abwehr » Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:54 pm

I've only seen smaller movement rates due to the new OP system, not larger ones. If Soviet armour can attack Borki and Kharkov on turn 1, something's seriously fishy.

Adjacent units combined with, possibly, not being in supply, can cause very high OP penalties in the new version, so the siege of Kharkov making it impossible to move troops is a feature of the new version. Adjacent units can be a real killer in ATD2, as the Soviets already have a low amount of OP's, and with some Germans next to them, moving can quickly become impossible.
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Postby Noakesy » Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:00 pm

Abwehr wrote:I've only seen smaller movement rates due to the new OP system, not larger ones. If Soviet armour can attack Borki and Kharkov on turn 1, something's seriously fishy.


That's what I thought. Maybe it was just that I didn't make the right moves previously, but in a first turn test of Kharkov I can definitely get two T34s from the south to the hexes adjacent to Borki, and the 3Pz Div engineer at the east end of Kharkov itself can be attacked at 5-1 with a chance of an over-run. Odd.

Something's definitely changed. In my test first turn against the AI (i.e. so no move required by the Germans), I have killed 12 units, taken Borki (the assault included an infantry rgt) and also attacked the German units in Kegichevka (and killed the AA unit just to the south with an infantry rgt which previously could only be caught by the cavalry I think). Unless I'm doing something very bizarre this could seriously unbalance the scenario I think?
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Postby Carl Myers » Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:27 pm

The movement point penalties rules were changed. Use the ease of movement like the Soviet artillery bonus, once the HQ's morph, the Soviet units will lose 1/3 of their OP bonus and need double the OP's to move into an enemy hex.
The German player needs to form continous defense lines east and south of Kharkov for the first 4 turns of the 'speedy' Soviet units.
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Postby Noakesy » Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:33 pm

Carl Myers wrote:The movement point penalties rules were changed. Use the ease of movement like the Soviet artillery bonus, once the HQ's morph, the Soviet units will lose 1/3 of their OP bonus and need double the OP's to move into an enemy hex.
The German player needs to form continous defense lines east and south of Kharkov for the first 4 turns of the 'speedy' Soviet units.


Thanks, I knew there was something!

Has this ruined the game do you think? It was finely balanced before hand I think, either side could win. But now, I think the germans are very much on the back-foot at the start, especially if (as is definitely possible) you lose 14+ units on the first turn. :cry: :cry: :cry:
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Postby YappyRaccoon » Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:27 pm

I don't understand what is new. Russia can move farther now?
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Postby Abwehr » Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:51 pm

I must've mixed up the old version with the new version, as Noakesy's right: the Soviets can move further now than before, which can be damaging to the balance of the scenario.
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Postby Noakesy » Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:09 pm

Abwehr wrote:I must've mixed up the old version with the new version, as Noakesy's right: the Soviets can move further now than before, which can be damaging to the balance of the scenario.


Carl seemed reasonably confident that you can block the fast units with a solid line of German units, but if Fritz loses 12+ units in the first turn it is a tough one to get back from. I made one or two errors in a game recently, but it didn't stop my opponent taking out 14, 12 and 13 units in the first three turns, which he did very well. It's easier to release the two tank corps, and all German units east of Kharkov get surrounded and then wiped out on turn 1 too :cry: :cry: :cry: ).

It would be a shame, as the previous incarnation of the scenario was quite nicely balanced, I think this change makes a soviet victory more likely (famous last words!) :D
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Postby Abwehr » Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:50 pm

The problem is less serious at Kharkov, as even if the Soviets advance towards Kharkov and kill 3rd Panzer's Pionier and Aufklarung battalions, they will lose their Tank brigades to the German counterattack. The Germans would also have to advance less far than normal to kill the leading Soviet units, so they might even be able to kill the Tank Brigades and whatever you send to Borki in 1 turn. The problem is probably more serious in the south, as with the current movement rates it's fairly easy to speed to Dnepropetrovsk and Lannaya before the Germans can bring reinforcements in, especially with an early release of the tank corps.
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Postby YappyRaccoon » Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:00 pm

What turn you get to Dnepepeprosk? Maybe AOs change. My game now I need turn 6 before area south opens for cavalry. Already SS Wiking moves up on turn 5. I only defend below Krasnograd, not attack. By turn 6, SS Wiking controls south and attacks north.

But maybe different mystery AOs open south earlier.
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Postby Abwehr » Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:03 am

Your best bet for taking Dnepropetrovsk is not to trigger Wiking's release by waiting with the capture of Krasnograd.

There are, however, a few problems: As you already mentioned, the AO's take a while to open up.

You can't encircle the city, so the Germans can use off map movement to pour reinforcements into the city, reinforcements which you can't cut off in any way. That problem, together with the nigh invincible German hedgehogged stacks in villages (Lannaya) cost me my tournament game against Talos.
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Postby YappyRaccoon » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:17 am

Ya the alert units make people do weird gamey stuff. I always take Krasnograd. I want to play honest game and I hope opponents do same.

My game design would have random alert unit release from city captures. Mystery alert units. This avoids gamey game breakers with realistic upper command release of limited reserves.
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Postby Noakesy » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:59 pm

YappyRaccoon wrote:Ya the alert units make people do weird gamey stuff. I always take Krasnograd. I want to play honest game and I hope opponents do same.


Last game Strax and I played we decided to 'play honest', makes for an interesting game (at least it would have done if it wasn't over by turn 6 or 7, but I blame the new ATD2 changes of course... :wink: :lol: :lol: )
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Postby YappyRaccoon » Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:59 pm

I think gamey style still is weaker cause in one game my opponent left all alert objectives empty so I got them free with no step loss which gives huge points. He wanted alert units for countering but lost his army in open plains giving German player thousands more points. Even Izyum was left open for free with counterattack waiting to northeast but I blocked it off.

I think capturing and defending cities is best way to play. Germany is best to defend Kras and Soviet best to take Kras in a fight. Lanaya hedgehog stack is difficult exploit to work against though if Soviet wants alert release. I think capturing Kras is smart cause Bobkin army is limited to Kras area and can fight SS Wiking no problem.
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Postby jjdenver » Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:58 am

Oh it's definitely changed. I just started a PBEM game as Axis and the Soviet player killed 18 units on his first turn including killing 2 arty units just outside of Kharkov that I didn't think could/would be killed. Screenshot of end USSR turn 1 in the north.
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