Two Stupid Kharkov Questions

Discussion relating to Kharkov: Disaster on the Donets

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Postby Roger Keating » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:06 am

I am not aware that this decision has been made at the time. Once the release date is announced and both Matrix and SSG have signed off on the product it will all be made clear. Hopefully this will be in a few weeks.
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Postby Noakesy » Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:25 pm

Carl Myers wrote:Weill, you have to consider what it means when a tank is taken out. Unless one touches off the onboard ammunition, a tank is taken out by taking out the crew. Repair the damage and replace the crew, one has a tank again.


I can see that Carl, but that also depends whether the army is on the 'offense' or 'defense', as in the latter with a retreating army it's quite difficult to recover wrecks (the Israelis were experts at doing this, and I think the Germans were pretty good too until they started going backwards).

As for Hank's comment re the 'box' for AtD, given my pc has the tendencey to blow up I sure hope this one will be in the box. I never seem to quite get around to downloading all my games onto discs and when I lose the pc..............
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Postby SS Hauptsturmfuhrer » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:59 pm

I hope for a box version too.

The tank recovery talk reminds me of many sad stories about Germans abandoning tons of precious armor just cause it was stuck or run out of fuel.
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Postby Graf Starhemberg » Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:12 am

All Matrixgames releases I´ve purchased within the last three years were available as download and boxed copy, so I am confident it will be the same with ATD2...
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Postby Talos » Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:07 am

Noakesy wrote:As for Hank's comment re the 'box' for AtD, given my pc has the tendencey to blow up I sure hope this one will be in the box. I never seem to quite get around to downloading all my games onto discs and when I lose the pc..............


Perhaps your PC has been on the receiving end of too many batterings in the war games its been playing, and has finally run out of electrons to keep it going. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:
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Postby critter » Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:59 am

Talos wrote:
Noakesy wrote:As for Hank's comment re the 'box' for AtD, given my pc has the tendencey to blow up I sure hope this one will be in the box. I never seem to quite get around to downloading all my games onto discs and when I lose the pc..............


Perhaps your PC has been on the receiving end of too many batterings in the war games its been playing, and has finally run out of electrons to keep it going. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:


oooo Thats rough...
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Postby Noakesy » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:47 pm

critter wrote:
Talos wrote:Perhaps your PC has been on the receiving end of too many batterings in the war games its been playing, and has finally run out of electrons to keep it going. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:


oooo Thats rough...


No Carl, that's not "rough", it's outrageous, and not a shred of evidence to support it.........erm......... :wink: :D
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Postby hank » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:27 am

As I was playing last night another iteration of Kharkov I had a sudden thought. ... aside from the problem of making up 1500 points in 6 turns ...

Has any thought gone into air recon? At this scale it would be appropriate. Of course you would have to add in risk of being shot down. (like that dreaded set of PzC games I still play)

And on a similar note, is there any modeling of air losses considered for future releases? Or is it already in there and I've missed it like an elephant in the room.

I know, more stupid questions.
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Postby Rook » Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:08 am

I have a feeling that the dreaded word "abstract" will show up shortly.
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Postby Abwehr » Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:14 am

Well, a recon unit representing recon aircraft with an impressive search range would require only some changes in the maximum hex range for the recon bonus in the editor, but that unit would be able to see all enemy units in a certain radius.

It would be pretty cool to have around, though. You could use "airfields" on the map as OMA's where the units could pop up after being "withdrawn" from their previous airfield, so the unit wouldn't have to move (which solves the issue of having to give a unit a large movement rating which would allow it to capture territory in a gamey way). The unit's AO would be limited to the "airfield" hexes, with each airfield becoming available if captured during the advance.

The main problem would be that the recon unit would basically see everything in a certain radius.

You could also make a "fighter" unit that way by giving an AA unit a very high amount of OP's whilst restricting it to the OMA of a certain corps or army. The "fighter" unit could then be used to reduce the effectiveness of interdiction, air strikes and carpet bombing attacks.

A "fighter bomber"/"ground attack"/"dive bomber" artillery unit (restricted to airfields like the recon unit) could also be created, reserving the air strike and carpet bombing options for medium bombers. AA would have no effect on the units, but entrenchment would have, which seems more realistic. It worked well in the Merkur scenario for BiI.
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Postby hank » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:40 am

The dreaded word abstract could be used for air recon.

Instead of a unit with an extended movement range, you could implement the same concept used for air strikes. Limit the range beyond the "front lines" to ~5 hexes. Select a hex that you want spotted. Roll the dice to determine whether the mission is successful or it gets shot down. Then expose any units in the hex specifically as armor or infy or whatever and any units in the surrounding 6 hexes as unknown units.

This is similar to what HPS does in the PzC games. I would limit the range behind enemy lines. You can typically see two hexes beyond the front line with ground units ... give or take a hex. Spotting an area 4 or 5 hexes beyond the front line with a air recon mission could add some more info to plan attacks or defense.

Of course limits have to be pretty severe on how many missions are available. ... only one in a turn with maybe a max of one for every 2 or 5 turns ... and obviously weather is also a limiting factor ... and even for spotting the hexes around the target hex. ... like Henry Fonda in TBofB movie when he was trying to find Robert Shaw.

(I doubt any of this will be done, but its fun to talk about)
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Postby Mik » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:06 am

I wonder if this is a good idea :
sure, it sounds great to have air recon but, given the magnitude of the playground, i'm not sure that it is really accurate to have one "air recon mission" on some turns ... The sky's full of air missions in the battles we play, why focus on one ? every one gave information at that time.
The game do not reflect the air superiority the allies had over Normandy for instance : every goddam bridge should be blown at the time of the landings .... and german div (especially the panzer) moved at night, not to be spotted and bombed right away. That is something that is not going to happen in DBWWII (easten front or not), because this is a ground based game, and air war is at least as complex as the ground war.

Theory aside, Abwehr's idea is interesting (using OMAs for abstracted air movement is something I did not think about) As we say in french , an idea to dig ! (an idea to be worked on (upon ? i don't know))

one more word : I would be extatic (!) :roll: if one can save its "massive bombing".
I mean if you're given a massive bombing at turn 5 , taht may not be the wisest thing to use it on turn 5, but maybe more on turn 6, or on turn 4. Whatever, the opportunity might be gone.

In a future version, wouldn't it be good to have one or more "mass bombing" die roll for the whole game, to use at owner's will, any turn he likes ? (that maybe at the cost of some VPs ... if that is the desire of the designer, who is the real God)
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Postby Abwehr » Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:06 pm

one more word : I would be extatic (!) if one can save its "massive bombing".
I mean if you're given a massive bombing at turn 5 , taht may not be the wisest thing to use it on turn 5, but maybe more on turn 6, or on turn 4. Whatever, the opportunity might be gone.

In a future version, wouldn't it be good to have one or more "mass bombing" die roll for the whole game, to use at owner's will, any turn he likes ? (that maybe at the cost of some VPs ... if that is the desire of the designer, who is the real God)


If some air strikes would be abstracted into artillery units, you could create a number of units without a HQ with enough bullets for 1 shot. The units could withdraw after a few turns if air support disappeared at that point and new ones could appear if more air support became available. It wouldn't replenish its attack bullets after the shot. The main problem is that this would also limit the amount of "real" artillery that could be fired at a hex.
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Postby Gregor Whiley » Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:21 am

Mik wrote:I wonder if this is a good idea :
sure, it sounds great to have air recon but, given the magnitude of the playground, i'm not sure that it is really accurate to have one "air recon mission" on some turns ... The sky's full of air missions in the battles we play, why focus on one ? every one gave information at that time.
The game do not reflect the air superiority the allies had over Normandy for instance : every goddam bridge should be blown at the time of the landings .... and german div (especially the panzer) moved at night, not to be spotted and bombed right away. That is something that is not going to happen in DBWWII (easten front or not), because this is a ground based game, and air war is at least as complex as the ground war.

Theory aside, Abwehr's idea is interesting (using OMAs for abstracted air movement is something I did not think about) As we say in french , an idea to dig ! (an idea to be worked on (upon ? i don't know))

one more word : I would be extatic (!) :roll: if one can save its "massive bombing".
I mean if you're given a massive bombing at turn 5 , taht may not be the wisest thing to use it on turn 5, but maybe more on turn 6, or on turn 4. Whatever, the opportunity might be gone.

In a future version, wouldn't it be good to have one or more "mass bombing" die roll for the whole game, to use at owner's will, any turn he likes ? (that maybe at the cost of some VPs ... if that is the desire of the designer, who is the real God)


If by 'massive bombing' you mean the use of heavy bombers for tactical support on the battlefield, then this didn't happen very often in WWII for a number of very good reasons.

Firstly, the bomber barons who actually controlled the heavy bombers were very, very reluctant to see them diverted from what they delusionally saw as their war winning job. Bomber Harris opposed the attack on the French railway system prior to D-Day and opposed any attempt to attack actual military targets inside Germany after D-Day, preferring instead his militarily and morally bankrupt policy of distributing bombs somewhat equally between German houses and cow pastures. He only agreed to the tactical bombing with a metaphorical gun to his head. The Americans were not as dogmatic as Harris, and had always believed in precision bombing, but were equally wedded to the strategic concept.

Secondly, tactical use of heavy bombers was not something that could be improvised. It took a lot of planning and organisation, and the crews were not trained for the mission. It must be said that when it came to the tactical use of heavy bombers (on the battlefield), the bomber commanders had very good grounds for their opposition.

In those circumstances, there is no way that a ground commander could have heavy bombers at his disposal, able to be committed whenever he saw fit, and even if he did the bombers would be at least as dangerous to their won side if they were used at short notice without elaborate preparations.

In the event, the battlefield carpet bombing in Normandy produced mixed results, and significant friendly fire casualties and the desire and the will to use it further quickly evaporated.

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Postby Mik » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:24 am

Gregor Whiley wrote:
Mik wrote:I wonder if this is a good idea :
sure, it sounds great to have air recon but, given the magnitude of the playground, i'm not sure that it is really accurate to have one "air recon mission" on some turns ... The sky's full of air missions in the battles we play, why focus on one ? every one gave information at that time.
The game do not reflect the air superiority the allies had over Normandy for instance : every goddam bridge should be blown at the time of the landings .... and german div (especially the panzer) moved at night, not to be spotted and bombed right away. That is something that is not going to happen in DBWWII (easten front or not), because this is a ground based game, and air war is at least as complex as the ground war.

Theory aside, Abwehr's idea is interesting (using OMAs for abstracted air movement is something I did not think about) As we say in french , an idea to dig ! (an idea to be worked on (upon ? i don't know))

one more word : I would be extatic (!) :roll: if one can save its "massive bombing".
I mean if you're given a massive bombing at turn 5 , taht may not be the wisest thing to use it on turn 5, but maybe more on turn 6, or on turn 4. Whatever, the opportunity might be gone.

In a future version, wouldn't it be good to have one or more "mass bombing" die roll for the whole game, to use at owner's will, any turn he likes ? (that maybe at the cost of some VPs ... if that is the desire of the designer, who is the real God)


If by 'massive bombing' you mean the use of heavy bombers for tactical support on the battlefield, then this didn't happen very often in WWII for a number of very good reasons.

Firstly, the bomber barons who actually controlled the heavy bombers were very, very reluctant to see them diverted from what they delusionally saw as their war winning job. Bomber Harris opposed the attack on the French railway system prior to D-Day and opposed any attempt to attack actual military targets inside Germany after D-Day, preferring instead his militarily and morally bankrupt policy of distributing bombs somewhat equally between German houses and cow pastures. He only agreed to the tactical bombing with a metaphorical gun to his head. The Americans were not as dogmatic as Harris, and had always believed in precision bombing, but were equally wedded to the strategic concept.

Secondly, tactical use of heavy bombers was not something that could be improvised. It took a lot of planning and organisation, and the crews were not trained for the mission. It must be said that when it came to the tactical use of heavy bombers (on the battlefield), the bomber commanders had very good grounds for their opposition.

In those circumstances, there is no way that a ground commander could have heavy bombers at his disposal, able to be committed whenever he saw fit, and even if he did the bombers would be at least as dangerous to their won side if they were used at short notice without elaborate preparations.

In the event, the battlefield carpet bombing in Normandy produced mixed results, and significant friendly fire casualties and the desire and the will to use it further quickly evaporated.

Gregor



I totally agree with you about the 'real' massive bombings and their impact at the operational level, i should not use the words "massive bombing", in fact i was reffering the 2nd air strike button, and the possibility to play a single bombing from turn n to turn n+?
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