Two Stupid Kharkov Questions

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Two Stupid Kharkov Questions

Postby dtbilek » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:55 am

So I'm sitting around wondering whatever happened to the Decisive Battles series and thinking it's been a long time since I used to play BiI when a nagging memory starts poking at me. Yeah, apparently I bought Kharkov a while back, got really busy with life stuff, and COMPLETELY FORGOT that I had bought it. It's been sitting uninstalled on my hard drive for ages. So, hey, new game I forgot I even had! Yay!

Two simple questions: Is there a hotkey to exit a combat results screen? I hate extraneous mouse clicks and right now it seems like once I enter the combat interface the only way to get out of it is to click the little X in the bottom or bottom right corner. Boooo.

Secondly, is there only one 16 turn scenario in Kharkov? I don't see any others when I try to start a game and that seems like a lot less than in previous games ranging from TAO to Korsun Pocket, BiI, or BiN all of which had multiple smaller scenarios and, if I recall correctly, usually one really big campaign scenario at around 32 turns.

BONUS QUESTION!: I used to post under the username davidb back when I played the other games PBEM with some guys here but I can't remember my password and have switched email addresses a couple times since then. Is there any reason for me to try to get my old username back? I'm not on a ladder or anything so I'm assuming it doesn't matter.
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Postby Talos » Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:15 am

I can't answer your hot key question as i just do not use any of them (which will probable surprise a few people). But one of the others should be able to answer this for you.

There is the main scenarios but it is has 10 mystery variants which can change the scenario parameters in a number of ways, so its effectively 10 scenarios in one. This range from a change in the force structure to changing the AO's for various armies and Korps on both sides which then gives quite profound changes on how you approach the battle.

There are also a couple of user scenarios out, and at some point a scenario pack of ATD is being released for it as well with operation Husky thrown in. In addition i know at least one of the community is developing another scenario.

As regards to your last question i doubt its an issue, but ia m sure one of the admins will answer if it is.
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Re: Two Stupid Kharkov Questions

Postby JSS » Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:12 pm

dtbilek wrote:So I'm sitting around wondering whatever happened to the Decisive Battles series and thinking it's been a long time since I used to play BiI when a nagging memory starts poking at me. Yeah, apparently I bought Kharkov a while back, got really busy with life stuff, and COMPLETELY FORGOT that I had bought it. It's been sitting uninstalled on my hard drive for ages. So, hey, new game I forgot I even had! Yay!

Two simple questions: Is there a hotkey to exit a combat results screen? I hate extraneous mouse clicks and right now it seems like once I enter the combat interface the only way to get out of it is to click the little X in the bottom or bottom right corner. Boooo.

Secondly, is there only one 16 turn scenario in Kharkov? I don't see any others when I try to start a game and that seems like a lot less than in previous games ranging from TAO to Korsun Pocket, BiI, or BiN all of which had multiple smaller scenarios and, if I recall correctly, usually one really big campaign scenario at around 32 turns.

BONUS QUESTION!: I used to post under the username davidb back when I played the other games PBEM with some guys here but I can't remember my password and have switched email addresses a couple times since then. Is there any reason for me to try to get my old username back? I'm not on a ladder or anything so I'm assuming it doesn't matter.


Like Talos, don't use hotkeys very much... (F5-F12, space bar, and L are the only ones I use regularly) so I just don't know if there is one for the combat display (it's not listed on the quick reference guide). ESC key seems like a natural, but it is used for exiting the program without saving turn.

Sent you a PM on the account issue. No issue if you want to simply use the new account.

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Postby hank » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:19 pm

This is as good a place as any for stupid questions

In Kharkov (and in BF), Axis armored units all have only 2 steps.

Most of the Soviet armored units are 4 steps.

Why are the Axis units only 2 steps? Is it because of numbers (i.e., there's more tanks in a soviet unit by 2x)?

I know the axis armored units are very powerful; much more in most cases than the soviet units even though they are 2 steps vs the weaker 4 step Soviet units.

My question concerns ease of destruction, not power. You can eliminate a two step unit in many ways; combine arty, air and direct attack and its gone.

What I don't know: do the Axis armored units always reappear after destruction? I think they do but I can't confirm this. (... in AtD?)

If not, has any thought gone into making them 3 step units? At least the larger armored units assigned to the PzDivs (not the smaller independent Tiger units, for example the 501 or 506).

Rarely in reality was Axis armor totally removed from the field of battle after a defeat. Usually, they would fall back, recover what they could and rebuild. (i.e., a one step unit once 3 steps; or a 2 step unit showing up on the edge of the map, either one could model this situation)

this is just a casual observation ... I expect nothing from this question to show up in AtD or anywhere else ... just me being inquisitive so I can better use these units

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated
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Postby Talos » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:36 pm

This is to do with the formations each side used. The German formations are Bn sized, the Russian Brigade sized (so they are bigger). The problem for the Soviets is even though their formations are bigger, they are not as combat effective as the German units, doctrine, communication and training of German units was vastly superior to any Russian formations at this time, that is why they are more combat capable.

German Pz Bn in the PZ divisions will reappear once after being destroyed, as long as they are not forced to surrender, in which case they are gone for good. They reappear as a one step unit that can be built very quickly up to its full combat power by adding the second step out of replacements.

Size of units is scenario specific so that could change in other scenarios, its really up to the scenario designer.

Hope this helps.
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Postby hank » Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:05 am

Thanks for the quick reply.

I think the resilience of the Axis armored units had to be modelled in some way. Either making a 2 step unit re-appear after both steps are gone or making them 3 steps would help the realism.

Thanks again ...

... anxiously awaiting AtD 8)
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Postby Gregor Whiley » Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:56 am

hank wrote:Thanks for the quick reply.

I think the resilience of the Axis armored units had to be modelled in some way. Either making a 2 step unit re-appear after both steps are gone or making them 3 steps would help the realism.

Thanks again ...

... anxiously awaiting AtD 8)


The Axis panzer battalions are somewhat vulnerable if you park them unsupported in the open. The solution to that vulnerability is to not do so. Step losses are always taken first from the unit with the most steps, so a two step panzer battalion stacked with a four step infantry unit is safe from most sniping.

Of course, they cannot be immune to losses, but in Kharkov, all the German panzer battalions belonging to real divisions have one life. That is, the turn after they are destroyed they will turn up, as a one step unit, in an OMA box ready for transfer to the map. This models, with a suitable delay, the coherence and reslience of German armoured formations.


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Postby hank » Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:52 am

I'm a tanker kinda guy so please excuse me beating the dead horse over armored.

I'm just making observations; not intending to change any minds.

I know I should not place my armored units in hexes by themself but in some cases I'll entrench a single armored unit in a hex behind an infantry regiment so in the event the infy has to retreat they have an entrenched hex to fall back in ... that's about as risky as I get but its rare I'll do that and only when I'm really getting low on resources. I hide them very well especially during the first few turns when the soviet arty is devestating.

I have seen assaults on hexes containing infantry with armor units get a bad die roll (from defender's point of view) and been forced to retreat; the armored unit sometimes pushed into an empty hex. Then a subsequent attack either by ground forces, arty or air can be used to eliminate it completely for several turns.

It just seems the Axis armor is too easy to destroy compared to the Soviets units even though I know the soviet armor unit is a numerically larger unit. The Germans were excellent at recovering equipment and repairing it thoughout most of the war with the later months the exception.

thanks again for the reply

(alternative reason for these 'dead horse' posts is to keep the forum going ... its been so quiet lately ... even with AtD on the horizon ... seems like we'd see more posts than we've had lately)
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Postby Abwehr » Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:38 am

Armour for the Axis and the Soviets is vulnerable in its own way. The Axis have fewer steps, the Soviets rapidly lose quality after taking a step hit. I like battalions with 3 steps if they're strong forces or could take a hit in real life.

One thing that's tricky to model is the scaling down in unit size as losses affect them over the years, especially in the Axis case. German regiments in 1944/1945 could in theory have the strength of a 1941 battalion. That might be why their combat power remains more or less consistent, instead of improving due to better weapons.

As to the forum: it has been pretty quiet throughout 2009, with the exception of moments when new scenarios were released/announced or updates/edited versions released.
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Postby Roger Keating » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:39 am

Just a small note to add to the discussion about units that are 'killed' in a fight. Often this represents the fact that the unit is now completely out of action as elimination seldom occured. The shattered units would move to rear areas and then regroup in some manner.

German forces managed this very well but Allied forces had great difficulty with this concept through most of WWII. It is hard to get over the idea that an eliminated unit is not actually killed but we try to handle it through the life concept and refit process. We can only ever get close to what happened but the alternative is not good either. I remember playing a game that required Italian forces to have more water as their food required it ... I would rather keep above this particular level.
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Postby Abwehr » Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:06 am

It would be nice if more scenarios gave artillery units a life or two, I have to say. The chance of completely wiping out an artillery battalion not to mention a regiment for the duration of an operation lasting several weeks purely with counter battery fire wasn't all that high.
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Postby Noakesy » Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:21 pm

Personally I can see the arguments for the greater flexibility for German armour being represented through the ability to re-form units. My issue is that they can do this (generally), within a day. I don't think the timescale of our scenarios really would allow for this to be accurately represented, unless I am looking at this 'too literally' (which is quite possible), maybe this is meant to be an abstract representation of their abilities.
Last edited by Noakesy on Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby pete AU » Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:55 pm

Roger Keating wrote:I remember playing a game that required Italian forces to have more water as their food required it ... I would rather keep above this particular level.



Now thats painful book keeping. I had a Burma game form the 70's that required you to keep track of the different food requirements of the allies (indians,chinese,english,africans,americans) apparently this was a real problem in the theatre where one nationality WOULDN'T eat the food of some others - still, always preferred playing the japs in that game.
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Postby Carl Myers » Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:57 am

Andrew
My issue is that they can do this (generally), within a day.


Weill, you have to consider what it means when a tank is taken out. Unless one touches off the onboard ammunition, a tank is taken out by taking out the crew. Repair the damage and replace the crew, one has a tank again.
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Postby hank » Thu Jan 28, 2010 4:17 am

ching ching ... hit paydirt

Good to see people are still reading this forum. I'm getting all hyped up over the upcoming AtD release. I never bought BiI so I don't have any idea what Husky is like so that will be a whole new experience for me.

Next we need some more new threads or some old ones revived to keep up the enthusiasm.

anxiously awaiting AtD ... money already allocated

but I do have one question (w/o searching for an answer so please forgive): will AtD be available in a box? I buy all my games in-box now. I just like the packaging and the official disk and in my old age I've developed patience enough to wait for the mail to arrive.
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