Kharkov v1.11

Discussion relating to Kharkov: Disaster on the Donets

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Postby Noakesy » Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:39 am

Thanks, it's something that used to happen with BiI I think, but I'm sure someone said you could do it ok with Kharkov.
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Postby Chris Merchant » Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:57 am

yes if you want to save your secure pbem for later, just exit the game by hitting alt-F4 and it will save at that point. Start the game and click the 'load secure game' button in the bottom right hand corner to resume. I think there was a bug in a previous DB game that exposed some units using this method, but this is fixed for Kharkov.

Note the replay turn feature is usually lost if you resume the turn.

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Postby Chris Merchant » Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:00 am

the manual was updated to 1.10 - will leave the next update until ATD as there's only a couple of additions in 1.11

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Postby Carl Myers » Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:03 am

Noakesy wrote:Thanks, it's something that used to happen with BiI I think, but I'm sure someone said you could do it ok with Kharkov.


The problem of the replay was in BiN. If you are not shutting the computer off or you are hibernating the computer, just minimize the window.
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Postby Strax » Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:53 pm

[quote="Noakesy"]Has the manual been updated at all to take into account any changes (e.g. HQ suppression, refit and so on)?

Can anyone remind me, is it possible to come out of the game half way through your turn (without revealing all your forces to your PBEM opponent)?

Cheers :D[/quote



You certainly could with the last version. I had to. It takes me about 3 hrs a turn.
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Postby Abwehr » Wed May 27, 2009 4:27 am

As an idea for the next patch/update/Across the Dnepr II: would it be possible to give units a refit bonus if it keep refitting, but fails?

An example:

The HQ for unit X has a 30% chance to replace a step.
The unit decides to refit, but fails.
The next turn, unit X gets a bonus to refitting if it refits again.

A 10% bonus each turn would be reasonable, to reflect the effect of additional rest on a unit.

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Now someone is going to come in and say this is an "event" issue that can't be programmed into the engine at the current time because it would take too much time/effort.
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Sounds good

Postby critter » Wed May 27, 2009 6:24 am

Don't kno if its possible..But another neat idea would be to let a div with shot up units use up the timed replacements left to all the other units in the div, and rebuild to full strengt but at less combat values or even a drop in experiance level.
Would work good for the AI. That needs units on the defense.
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Postby Abwehr » Wed May 27, 2009 7:18 am

Experience levels dropping after a certain event is something I suggested a while ago, but the response was that event based changes to the engine are more or less impossible with the current time/money SSG can spend.
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Postby Roger Keating » Wed May 27, 2009 9:53 am

The 30% increasing by 10% each time a refit is used is not really that much of a problem. It is certainly not an event based mechanism but simply a mechanic in the game that just has to be tracked and acted on.

The problems I have is ..

.. you really need to display this somewhere so that the player knows that unit1 has 1 30% chance, unit 2 a 40$ chance and unit 3 a 60% chance of refit. There is very little real estate around for this to happen

.. almost all the people I play tend to move all available units all the time. Although this is not optimal play if a gap needs to be plugged or an attack reinforced then it is grab time. Few units get to refit more than two turns before being called back to action.

I do like the idea though and will keep it in mind but the display issue is a major drawback.
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Postby Abwehr » Wed May 27, 2009 6:31 pm

.. you really need to display this somewhere so that the player knows that unit1 has 1 30% chance, unit 2 a 40$ chance and unit 3 a 60% chance of refit. There is very little real estate around for this to happen


Why would it need to be displayed at the actual unit? A note on the HQ unit stating something like 30% (+10%) would be enough, like the entrenchment bonuses. It could also be an option to include a colour on the unit symbol. Instead of green, orange (?), red or grey, the colour for a refitting unit could be black or white. However, I still don't think that the unit itself would need to indicate what its refit chances are, perhaps only what bonus it gets if it doesn't succesfully refit but keeps refitting.

One of the reasons for moving units that can refit is that there's often little to no certainty that a unit will get a step and thus people feel it is a better idea to leave them in the line in their current shape.

If a refit bonus would be added each turn of refitting, I would most certainly pull half-dead units out of the line and try to refit them. The risk in that case would probably be more than worth it, and there's always some place on the line that is less critical to defend at a certain point. In a scenario like the Kharkov 1942 scenario, both sides can find a safe place to refit close to the frontline. The Soviets behind a screen of attacking units or their fortifications and the Germans in areas the Soviets can't reach. Refitting with a bonus would be a strategically good thing to do in those situations, and leaving the units in the frontline where they will die in short notice won't be a good idea.
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Postby Roger Keating » Thu May 28, 2009 9:22 am

Having a statement on the HQ like 30% (+10%) is the sort of display that can get negative comments from some players.

What a player wants to know is 'if I hit the refit button what chance have I got to get a step'. Currently they can go to the HQ but in a variable situation then some information must be keep with the unit. This is the sort of discussion that goes on inside SSG meetings all the time and usually leads to good compromises on display and mechanics. It is one of the reasons why refit is there currently.

Refit occured in older games but was hidden in the system due to complexity. A simpler system was required and it took a while to settle on refit but immediately it was pointed out that it would have to be included in warnings on End Turn and a global refit button had to be included as well as a refit selection button in the Unit Roster dialog.

As I said previously I do like the idea as many of my units, especially German ones in ATD, have sat for turns trying to get steps back. I will certainly look into a way to introduce this to the system so don't take the above as a negative argument. It is just to say that once you get beyond the idea and into implemention all sorts of problems come up.
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Postby Carl Myers » Thu May 28, 2009 10:42 am

Now that there are actual HQ units and that refit repairing simulates the action of HQ's coming with personnel from HQ non-combat assets, walking wounded from field hospitals, destroyed units etc., should not the HQ have a variable chance of getting steps in a turn and allocating them to units capable of a refit and are without timed replacements?
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Postby Abwehr » Thu May 28, 2009 6:09 pm

As I said previously I do like the idea as many of my units, especially German ones in ATD, have sat for turns trying to get steps back. I will certainly look into a way to introduce this to the system so don't take the above as a negative argument. It is just to say that once you get beyond the idea and into implemention all sorts of problems come up.


Understandable, but with the current amount of abstractions already available on the HQ screen, like HQ bonuses, I don't think it would be a such a big deal if there'd be a 30% (+10%) figure on the HQ screen, a bit like the entrenchment indicator for units currently. There are a a fair amount of variables, such as HQ bonuses and supplies which the player can't always see or calculate.

As the percentage for refit chances should drop back to the original level after a refit, would it really be necessary to include a specific counter on the unit? We're probably only talking an average of two turns of refitting like this for every refitting unit.

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Carl Myers: I'm not sure I like that suggestion, as what you imply is an automated process without player input, whilst generals in real life, and in this case us, would be able to place priority on certain units. Now everybody can refit, but we can decide which units to refit. If there'd be some sort of global auto-refit, that would be a bit of a problem.

I also thought that wounded returning were mostly built into regular replacements.
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Postby Carl Myers » Thu May 28, 2009 8:55 pm

I'm not sure I like that suggestion, as what you imply is an automated process without player input, whilst generals in real life, and in this case us, would be able to place priority on certain units. Now everybody can refit, but we can decide which units to refit. If there'd be some sort of global auto-refit, that would be a bit of a problem.

Let us try this again. Currently, as the overall battle commander, either Moscow or Berlin gives you replacements that you can allocate as you will. But we are also all of the local commanders who have noncombat units that are not displayed on the map from which to draw repair steps. Instead of the current random allocation of repar steps directly to units, I suggest each HQ gets a random allocation of repar steps which you the commarder doles out to your units. For example, if the 8th Corps has 3 units eligible for refitting that need repair replacements, the computer decides with die rolls on whether 0, 1, 2, or 3 repair steps are available this turn for you to allocate to the 8th Corps units that are eligible for repair replacements.

Increasing the chance of unit to get a repair replacement does not make sense on the basis of 'rest'. We or not talking about units who have been disorganized and could use resting behind the lines to accelerate their timed replacements but units needing new personnel.
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Postby Abwehr » Fri May 29, 2009 2:02 am

Instead of the current random allocation of repar steps directly to units, I suggest each HQ gets a random allocation of repar steps which you the commarder doles out to your units.


That's not the same thing as what you said earlier, but now I get it.

I guess it would be fairly difficult to keep track of regular replacements and HQ related replacements (which would also need to be displayed in a new screen, probably) for every individual HQ.

I still think the system you're proposing is too random, as we won't have any kind of control over which units get extra replacements, which is unrealistic and can lead to gamey situations if one player is lucky and gets mostly 3 replacements and his opponent doesn't get any or few. There are already too many statistical variables built into the game system which can turn games into matches of who's the luckiest instead of who has the most skill, and I dislike the suggestion of introducing another random variable unrelated to variables already in place.

Increasing the chance of unit to get a repair replacement does not make sense on the basis of 'rest'. We or not talking about units who have been disorganized and could use resting behind the lines to accelerate their timed replacements but units needing new personnel.


Are you in the camp of "steps are only men", as it seems you are, and I disagree. Generally, a unit which rests more will be more effective than a unit which doesn't. More time spend resting can mean more time to (re-)organize, to re-equip and generally to remove the fatique of units which have been fighting. I think more rest should be rewarded with a higher chance of getting a refit step.
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