1941 panzer division

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1941 panzer division

Postby J Campbell » Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:04 am

Hello.

I am reworking the scenarioi had 80% completed for BII to play on Battlefront.

What is the best counter description for a panzer division in 1941. The scenario will be focused around Soltsy in 1941 with 8th panzer and 3rd motorised divisions and later Totenkopf.

I looked over the units in the Gazala scenario for an idea n how to for the panzer divisions. 1 thing i noticed- the panzer compnies in the panzer divisions number 4 per battalion. It looks like 8th Panzer division had 3 companies per battalion- i realise that there was not uniformity in the german army but wanted to double check before i went ahead. i do not know much about the desert theatre- was there a larger component to the panzer divisions here than on the east front?

thanks,
john
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1941 Panzer Division

Postby rniles » Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:35 am

Check out this link for the 1941 organization of the 8th Panzer Division. Other units can be found at this site too.

http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany ... pz-08.html
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Postby J Campbell » Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:32 am

thanks-takes awhile going through the symbols but the info is invaluable
thx again,
john
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Postby Adam Parker » Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:39 pm

You can find its broad information on pages 69-70 of Nafziger's "German Order of Battle Panzers and Artillery" book - your local library may be able to source it for you - a great 3 volume set that should be on every DYOer's shelf.

The 8th PzD underwent some changes from its inception as the 3rd Light Div in 1939, through 1940 till Jan 1941 when it comprised:

8th Shutzen Bde - 1, 2/8th Shutzen Rgt; 1, 2/28th Shutzen Rgt.
8th Motorcycle Btn.
1, 2, 3/10th Pz Rgt.
1, 2, 3/80th Arty Rgt.
59th Recon Btn.
43 PzJ Btn.
59th Pioneer Btn.
84th Signals Btn.

On 22 June 1941 its Pz Btn's each comprised:

1 staff Coy, 1 Medium Pz Coy and 2 Light Pz Coys for a total Div strength of:

Pz II - 49
Pz 38t - 118
Pz IV - 30
Pz 38t Cmd - 7
Pz Repair - 8

By Sep 10 1941 it had operational:

Pz I - 8
Pz II - 36
Pz III - 78
Pz IV - 17
Pz Repair - 15

By June 1942 its Pz III's and IV's were gone. 1 Pz II remained. It served largely as a quasi-PzG Div until a refit in July 1943 principally with Pz III's, again in 1944 until its capture by the Russian in May 1945.

This is why I favour games with generic attack, defense and maneuver ratings unless the scenario is so specific that it can be researched to the n'th degree or abstracted as in a game of ASL!

Hope this helps. Good luck getting hold of the books if you try (they're definitely in print but expensive) and there's some equally great OOB material around for the Russians in A4 spiral bound format.

Also look for a great book called "Hitler's Nemesis" by Walter Dunn for some great Russian info.
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Postby Brad Hunter » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:08 pm

George Nafziger’s forte is his Napoleonic information – it is unsurpassed in the English language, but some of his WWII stuff has errors and mis-interpretations – no disrespect meant. I’ve had quite a bit of correspondence with Mr. Nafziger over the years, and he is very knowledgable on many topics.

Anyhow, to answer the OP’s question, the 5th and 8th Panzer regiments were authorized 3 x leichte Panzer kompanien with 4 x Zuge each, and 1 x mittler Panzer Kompanie with 2 x Zuge each. Here is a post at the Matrix forums that I made on the Axis Gazala OoB, explaining the situation:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1412576

Here’s the ToEs for the units that you have mentioned:

8. Panzer Division (Theoretical ToE – 6/22/41)
--10. Panzer Regiment
----HQ – Staff Units
------leichte Panzer Zug – 5 x Pz II
----I./8. Panzer Regiment
------HQ – Staff Units
--------leichte Panzer Zug – 5 x Pz II
--------Kradshutzen Zug – 4 x Kradshutzen Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.)
--------Pionier Zug – 4 x Pionier Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.)
--------Fla Zug – 4 x Truck-mounted dual LMG
------leichte Panzer Kompanie (x 2)
--------HQ – 2 x Pz 38t, 5 x Pz II
--------Panzer Zug – 5 x Pz 38t
--------Panzer Zug – 5 x Pz 38t
--------Panzer Zug – 5 x Pz 38t
------mittler Panzer Kompanie
--------HQ – 2 x Pz IV, 5 x Pz II
--------Panzer Zug – 5 x Pz IV
-------- Panzer Zug – 5 x Pz IV
----II./8. Panzer Regiment (as I. Abteilung)
----III./8. Panzer Regiment (as I. Abteilung)
[Actual panzer strength on 6/22/41, as per Jentz: 49 x Pz II, 118 x Pz 38t, 30 x Pz IV, 7 x PzBef 38t, 8 x PzBef]
--8. Schutzen Brigade (mot)
----8. Schutzen Regiment
------Infantriegeschutz Kompanie – 4 x 75mm leIG, 2 x 150mm sIG
------I./8. Schutzen Regiment
--------Schutzen Kompanie (x 3) [1st Company, only, is “gepanzerte” – mounted in SdKfz 251/1]
----------MG Gruppe – 2 x HMG
----------Schutzen Zug – 3 x Schutzen Gruppe (2 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
----------Schutzen Zug – 3 x Schutzen Gruppe (2 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
----------Schutzen Zug – 3 x Schutzen Gruppe (2 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
--------Maschinengewehr Kompanie
----------MG Zug – 4 x HMG
----------MG Zug – 4 x HMG
----------Morser Zug – 6 x 81mm Mortar
--------schwere Kompanie
----------Panzerjager Zug – 3 x 37mm Pak
----------Infanteriegechutz Zug – 2 x 75mm leIG
----------Pionier Zug – 3 x Pionier Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.)
------II./8. Schutzen Regiment (as I Bataillon)
----28. Schutzen Regiment (as 8. Schutzen Regiment)
----8. Kradschutzen Bataillon
--------Kradschutzen Kompanie (x 3)
----------MG Gruppe – 2 x HMG
----------Kradschutzen Zug – 3 x Kradschutzen Gruppe (2 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
----------Kradschutzen Zug – 3 x Kradschutzen Gruppe (2 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
----------Kradschutzen Zug – 3 x Kradschutzen Gruppe (2 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
--------Kradschutzen Maschinengewehr Kompanie
----------Kradschutzen MG Zug – 4 x HMG
----------Kradschutzen MG Zug – 4 x HMG
----------Morser Zug – 6 x 81mm Mortar (Truck)
--------schwere Kradschutzen Kompanie
----------Panzerjager Zug – 3 x 37mm Pak
----------Infanteriegechutz Zug – 2 x 75mm leIG
----------Pionier Zug – 3 x Pionier Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.)
--59. Panzeraufklarungs Abteilung
----Panzerspahwagen Kompanie
------schwere Panzerspahwagen Zug – 3 x SdKfz 231, 3 x SdKfz 232
------leichte Panzerspahwagen Zug – 4 x SdKfz 221, 4 x SdKfz 222
------leichte Panzerspahwagen Zug – 6 x SdKfz 221
----Kradschutzen Kompanie
------MG Gruppe – 2 x HMG
------Kradschutzen Zug – 3 x Kradschutzen Gruppe (2 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
------Kradschutzen Zug – 3 x Kradschutzen Gruppe (2 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
------Kradschutzen Zug – 3 x Kradschutzen Gruppe (2 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
----schwere Kompanie
------Panzerjager Zug – 3 x 37mm Pak
------Infanteriegechutz Zug – 2 x 75mm leIG
------Pionier Zug – 3 x Pionier Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.)
--43. Panzerjager Abteilung (mot)
----Panzerjager Kompanie (x 3)
------Panzerjager Zug – 3 x 50mm Pak
------Panzerjager Zug – 3 x 50mm Pak
------Panzerjager Zug – 4 x 37mm Pak
------4./48. Heer Fla Abteilung (sfl) – 2 x SdKfz 7/1, 8 x SdKfz 10/4
--59. Panzerpionier Bataillon – (including 1 x Type B, and 1x Type K bridging columns)
----Pionier Kompanie (x 2)
------Pionier Zug – 3 x Pionier Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.)
------Pionier Zug – 3 x Pionier Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.)
------Pionier Zug – 3 x Pionier Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.)
----Pionier Kompanie (gp)
------HQ – 2 x Pz II
------Ladungstrager Zug – 2 x Pz II “Ladungstrager” (Pz II with demolition gear)
------Ladungstrager Zug – 2 x Pz II “Ladungstrager” (Pz II with demolition gear)
------Pionier Zug (gp) – 3 x Pionier Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.) (mounted in SdKfz 251/7)
------Pionier Zug – 3 x Pionier Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.) (truck mounted)
--80. Artillerie Regiment (mot)
----I./80. Artillerie Regiment
------leichte Artillerie Batterie – 4 x 105mm FH18 How.
------leichte Artillerie Batterie – 4 x 105mm FH18 How.
------leichte Artillerie Batterie – 4 x 105mm FH18 How.
----II./80. Artillerie Regiment – (as I./ 80. Artillerie Regiment)
----III./80. Artillerie Regiment
------schwere Artillerie Batterie – 4 x 150mm sFH18 How.
------schwere Artillerie Batterie – 4 x 150mm sFH18 How.
------schwere Artillerie Batterie – 4 x 150mm sFH18 How.

3. Infanterie Division (mot)(Theoretical ToE – 6/22/41)
--8. Schutzen Regiment (mot)
----HQ
------Pionier Zug – 3 x Pionier Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.)
------Kradschutzen Zug – 3 x Kradschutzen Gruppe
----Infantriegeschutz Kompanie – 6 x 75mm leIG, 2 x 150mm sIG
----Panzerjager Kompanie – 12 x 37mm Pak
----Kradschutzen Zug – 3 x Kradschutzen Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.)
----I./8. Schutzen Regiment
------Schutzen Kompanie (x 3)
--------Schutzen Zug – 4 x Schutzen Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
--------Schutzen Zug – 4 x Schutzen Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
--------Schutzen Zug – 4 x Schutzen Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
------Maschinengewehr Kompanie
--------MG Zug – 6 x HMG
--------MG Zug – 6 x HMG
--------Morser Zug – 6 x 81mm Mortar
----II./8. Schutzen Regiment – (as I./8. Schutzen Regiment)
----III./8. Schutzen Regiment – (as I./8. Schutzen Regiment)
--29. Schutzen Regiment (mot) (as 8. Schutzen Regiment (mot))
--53. Kradschutzen Bataillon
------Kradschutzen Kompanie (x 3)
--------MG Gruppe – 2 x HMG
--------Kradschutzen Zug – 3 x Kradschutzen Gruppe (2 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
--------Kradschutzen Zug – 3 x Kradschutzen Gruppe (2 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
--------Kradschutzen Zug – 3 x Kradschutzen Gruppe (2 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
------Kradschutzen Maschinengewehr Kompanie
--------Kradschutzen MG Zug – 4 x HMG
--------Kradschutzen MG Zug – 4 x HMG
--------Morser Zug – 6 x 81mm Mortar (Truck)
------schwere Kradschutzen Kompanie
--------Panzerjager Zug – 3 x 37mm Pak
--------Infanteriegechutz Zug – 2 x 75mm leIG
--------Pionier Zug – 3 x Pionier Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.)
--53. Panzeraufklarungs Abteilung
----Panzerspahwagen Kompanie
------schwere Panzerspahwagen Zug – 3 x SdKfz 231, 3 x SdKfz 232
------leichte Panzerspahwagen Zug – 4 x SdKfz 221, 4 x SdKfz 222
------leichte Panzerspahwagen Zug – 6 x SdKfz 221
----Kradschutzen Kompanie
------MG Gruppe – 2 x HMG
------Kradschutzen Zug – 3 x Kradschutzen Gruppe (2 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
------Kradschutzen Zug – 3 x Kradschutzen Gruppe (2 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
------Kradschutzen Zug – 3 x Kradschutzen Gruppe (2 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
----schwere Kompanie
------Panzerjager Zug – 3 x 37mm Pak
------Infanteriegechutz Zug – 2 x 75mm leIG
------Pionier Zug – 3 x Pionier Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.)
--3. Panzerjager Abteilung (mot)
----Panzerjager Kompanie (x 3)
------Panzerjager Zug – 4 x 37mm Pak
------Panzerjager Zug – 4 x 37mm Pak
------Panzerjager Zug – 3 x 50mm Pak
--3. Pionier Bataillon (mot) (including 1 x Type B bridging column)
----Pionier Kompanie (x 3)
------Pionier Zug – 3 x Pionier Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.)
------Pionier Zug – 3 x Pionier Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.)
------Pionier Zug – 3 x Pionier Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.)
--3. Artillerie Regiment (mot)
----I./3. Artillerie Regiment
------leichte Artillerie Batterie – 4 x 105mm FH18 How.
------leichte Artillerie Batterie – 4 x 105mm FH18 How.
------leichte Artillerie Batterie – 4 x 105mm FH18 How.
----II./3. Artillerie Regiment – (as I./ 80. Artillerie Regiment)
----III./3. Artillerie Regiment
------schwere Artillerie Batterie – 4 x 150mm sFH18 How.
------schwere Artillerie Batterie – 4 x 150mm sFH18 How.
------schwere Artillerie Batterie – 4 x 105mm FK18 Gun

Infanterie Division (mot) “SS-Totenkopf” (Theoretical ToE – 6/22/41)
--1. Infanterie Regiment (mot) “SS-Totenkopf”
----HQ
------Kradschutzen Zug – 3 x Kradschutzen Gruppe
----I./1. Infanterie Regiment (mot) “SS-Totenkopf”
------Schutzen Kompanie (x 3)
--------Schutzen Zug – 4 x Schutzen Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
--------Schutzen Zug – 4 x Schutzen Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
--------Schutzen Zug – 4 x Schutzen Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
------Maschinengewehr Kompanie
--------MG Zug – 6 x HMG
--------MG Zug – 6 x HMG
--------Morser Zug – 6 x 81mm Mortar
----II./1. Infanterie Regiment (mot) “SS-Totenkopf” (as I./1. Infanterie Regiment (mot) “SS-Totenkopf”)
----III./1. Infanterie Regiment (mot) “SS-Totenkopf” (as I./1. Infanterie Regiment (mot) “SS-Totenkopf”)
----13. Infanteriegeschutz Kompanie – 6 x 75mm leIG, 2 x 150mm sIG
----14. Panzerjager Kompanie – 12 x 37mm Pak
----15. Kradschutzen Kompanie
------MG Gruppe – 2 x HMG
------Kradschutzen Zug – 3 x Kradschutzen Gruppe (2 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
------Kradschutzen Zug – 3 x Kradschutzen Gruppe (2 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
------Kradschutzen Zug – 3 x Kradschutzen Gruppe (2 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
----16. Pionier Kompanie
------Pionier Zug – 3 x Pionier Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.)
------Pionier Zug – 3 x Pionier Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.)
------Pionier Zug – 3 x Pionier Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.)
--2. Infanterie Regiment (mot) “SS-Totenkopf”
----HQ
------Kradschutzen Zug – 3 x Kradschutzen Gruppe
------Pionier Zug – 3 x Pionier Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.)
----I./2. Infanterie Regiment (mot) “SS-Totenkopf”
------Schutzen Kompanie (x 3)
--------Schutzen Zug – 4 x Schutzen Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
--------Schutzen Zug – 4 x Schutzen Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
--------Schutzen Zug – 4 x Schutzen Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
------Maschinengewehr Kompanie
--------MG Zug – 6 x HMG
--------MG Zug – 6 x HMG
--------Morser Zug – 6 x 81mm Mortar
----II./2. Infanterie Regiment (mot) “SS-Totenkopf” (as I./2. Infanterie Regiment (mot) “SS-Totenkopf”)
----III./2. Infanterie Regiment (mot) “SS-Totenkopf” (as I./2. Infanterie Regiment (mot) “SS-Totenkopf”)
----13. Infanteriegeschutz Kompanie – 6 x 75mm leIG, 2 x 150mm sIG
----14. Panzerjager Kompanie – 12 x 37mm Pak
----15. Kradschutzen Kompanie
------MG Gruppe – 2 x HMG
------Kradschutzen Zug – 3 x Kradschutzen Gruppe (2 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
------Kradschutzen Zug – 3 x Kradschutzen Gruppe (2 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
------Kradschutzen Zug – 3 x Kradschutzen Gruppe (2 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
--3. Infanterie Regiment (mot) “SS-Totenkopf” (as 1. Infanterie Regiment (mot) “SS-Totenkopf”)
--Panzeraufklarungs Abteilung “SS-Totenkopf”
----Kradschutzen Kompanie (x 2)
------Kradschutzen Zug – 3 x Kradschutzen Gruppe (2 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
------Kradschutzen Zug – 3 x Kradschutzen Gruppe (2 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
------Kradschutzen Zug – 3 x Kradschutzen Gruppe (2 x LMG ea.), 1 x 50mm Mortar
------Kradschutzen MG Zug – 4 x HMG
----schwere Kompanie
------leichte Panzerspahwagen Zug – 4 x SdKfz 222, 4 x SdKfz 223
------Panzerjager Zug – 3 x 37mm Pak
------Infanteriegechutz Zug – 2 x 75mm leIG
------Pionier Zug – 3 x Pionier Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.)
------Morser Zug – 6 x 81mm Mortar
--Panzerjager Abteilung (mot) “SS-Totenkopf”
----Panzerjager Kompanie (x 3)
------Panzerjager Zug – 4 x 37mm Pak
------Panzerjager Zug – 4 x 37mm Pak
------Panzerjager Zug – 3 x 50mm Pak
--Flak Abteilung (mot) “SS-Totenkopf”
----leichte Fla Batterie – 12 x 20mm Fla (towed)
----mittler Fla Batterie (sfl) – 12 x SdKfz 6/2
----schwere Flak Batterie – 4 x 88mm Flak, 2 x 20mm Fla (towed)
--Pionier Bataillon (mot) “SS-Totenkopf” (including 1 x Type B bridging column)
----Pionier Kompanie (x 3)
------Pionier Zug – 3 x Pionier Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.)
------Pionier Zug – 3 x Pionier Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.)
------Pionier Zug – 3 x Pionier Gruppe (1 x LMG ea.)
--Sturmgeschutz Batterie “SS-Totenkopf” (Joins the division on 8/23/41) – 7 x StuG III
--Artillerie Regiment (mot) “SS-Totenkopf”
----I./Artillerie Regiment “SS-Totenkopf”
------leichte Artillerie Batterie – 4 x 105mm FH18 How.
------leichte Artillerie Batterie – 4 x 105mm FH18 How.
------leichte Artillerie Batterie – 4 x 105mm FH18 How.
----II./Artillerie Regiment “SS-Totenkopf” (as I./Artillerie Regiment “SS-Totenkopf”)
----III./Artillerie Regiment “SS-Totenkopf” (as I./Artillerie Regiment “SS-Totenkopf”)
----IV./ Artillerie Regiment “SS-Totenkopf”
------schwere Artillerie Batterie – 4 x 150mm sFH18 How.
------schwere Artillerie Batterie – 4 x 150mm sFH18 How.
------schwere Artillerie Batterie – 4 x 150mm sFH18 How.

Hope this helps.
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Postby JSS » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:56 pm

Brad,

Great stuff here :D .

One question:

Are the details on 3 SS Div for a theorhetical motorized infantry division or a 1941 source for 3 SS? Seems (off the top of my head) that 3 SS Div was not formed that early (as a division) and early on they had the standard 2 SS infanterie regiments along with a third non-standard SS regiment.

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Postby Adam Parker » Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:24 pm

Brad Hunter wrote:
[Actual panzer strength on 6/22/41, as per Jentz: 49 x Pz II, 118 x Pz 38t, 30 x Pz IV, 7 x PzBef 38t, 8 x PzBef]


Brad thanks for the insight re Nafziger. There will always be varying interpretations in this field owing to the paucity of surviving information and the voracity of reports created under trying times, mixed with the slaughter of so many in the know over the course of the war.

Is your Jentz source above from page 191 of Panzertruppen vol 1?
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Postby Brad Hunter » Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:40 am

JSS wrote:Brad,

Great stuff here :D .

One question:

Are the details on 3 SS Div for a theorhetical motorized infantry division or a 1941 source for 3 SS? Seems (off the top of my head) that 3 SS Div was not formed that early (as a division) and early on they had the standard 2 SS infanterie regiments along with a third non-standard SS regiment.

Marty


This is as per Niehorster - Volume 3/II, "Mechanized GHQ Units and Waffen-SS Formations, 22nd June, 1941."

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Postby Brad Hunter » Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:42 am

Adam Parker wrote:
Brad Hunter wrote:
[Actual panzer strength on 6/22/41, as per Jentz: 49 x Pz II, 118 x Pz 38t, 30 x Pz IV, 7 x PzBef 38t, 8 x PzBef]


Brad thanks for the insight re Nafziger. There will always be varying interpretations in this field owing to the paucity of surviving information and the voracity of reports created under trying times, mixed with the slaughter of so many in the know over the course of the war.

Is your Jentz source above from page 191 of Panzertruppen vol 1?


Sure is. There are other sources, but Jentz seems to be spot-on when compared to original sources.

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Postby Adam Parker » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:37 am

JSS wrote:Brad,

One question:

Are the details on 3 SS Div for a theorhetical motorized infantry division or a 1941 source for 3 SS? Seems (off the top of my head) that 3 SS Div was not formed that early (as a division) and early on they had the standard 2 SS infanterie regiments along with a third non-standard SS regiment.

Marty


This is interesting. Both Nazfiger and the "History of the 3rd SS Panzer Division Totenkopf - Like a Cliff in the Ocean" by Ullrich give the SSTK a "new" organisation on 16 May 1941 comprising only 2 Motorised Infantry Regiments - the 1st and the 3rd.

Nafziger includes a Motorcycle rgt of 2 btns strength as well but the "History" refers to this only as a single Aufklarungs (recon) btn.

Prior to this, from its inception at Dachau in 1939 through its campaign in France, the SSTK comprised 3 Motorised Infantry Regiments.

Nafziger asserts that the new organisation lasted until October 1942. A copy of an operational order of July 1 1941 - "Order to Attack 2 July 1941" on page 57 of the History, makes reference to only the 1st and 3rd Motorised Infantry Regiments and the Aufklarungs abt. No 2nd Inf rgt is mentioned.
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Postby Brad Hunter » Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:52 am

The 2nd Regiment was disbanded in the Fall of 1942, prior to conversion to a Panzergrenadier Division.
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Postby Adam Parker » Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:41 pm

Brad Hunter wrote:The 2nd Regiment was disbanded in the Fall of 1942, prior to conversion to a Panzergrenadier Division.


Actually Brad I found a different answer agreeing with the "History" and Nafziger - though not Nafziger's btn count.

In a footnote on P163 of "Soldiers of Destruction: The SS Death's Head Division 1933-45" by Charles Syndor, he writes that; "Before resuming his advance on July 2, Manstein ordereed Eicke to detach the 2nd Infantry Regiment and leave it in Dvinsk to serve as a reserve force for the Fifty-Sixth Panzer Corps". This correlates with the Operational Order I quoted earlier. What action this regiment saw from 22 June to that point is unclear. It is likely that it functioned as a reserve throughout that time though it did see extensive action in France.

The "History" (ie: Like a Clifff in the Ocean) then picks up on p68 in discussing the formation of the SSTK Kradschutzen (motorcycle infantry) Battalion:

"One can rightly consider the SSTK Infanterie Regiment 2 as the foundation of the Kradschutzen-Bataillon.

It was already known in the 15 (Kradschutzen)/SSTK Infantarie Regiment 2 on 12 July 1941 that a battalion was to be formed, using its cadre.

The official date of the regiment's deactivation was 14 July 1941. The infantrymen were sent out to SSTK Infanterie-Regimenter 1 and 3."

The narrative then goes into some interesting duscussion about regimental shoulder tab colors previously used and the fact that the process of amalgamating a dedicated motorcycle battalion did not go without the complaints of Regts 1 and 3 in giving up their motorcycle detachements too. But the 2nd Infantry Regiment definitely disbanded mid 1941 to fill its ranks.

Karl Ullrich, author of the "History" joined the SSTK as the commander of its combat engineer btn prior to Barbarossa. He of course took command after further placements within the Waffen SS, of the SS Viking Division in 1944.
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Postby Brad Hunter » Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:30 am

Well then, there you go. Good catch.

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Postby Adam Parker » Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:36 am

It's refreshing to have a good "thinking" conversation than the rubbish that seems to be going on at other forums.

I appreciate your opinion re Nafziger too. I think that he will always remain the starting point for DYO. We're very lucky now that after decades of scenario design, we can at least count on someone having done the research on the microfilms and archives etc., to help fill in the gaps where the scale warrants.

As a side note, I wish Gregor and the team would publish some follow on play vs AI scenario packs for this game. I emailed him the suggestion to expand but never heard back.

The DYO following that SSG predicted jusitfying the paucity of included scenarios for this game does not seem to have eventuated.
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