Market Garden - bridges over the lower Rhine

Discussion relating to Battlefront

Moderators: AlexS, Run5 Staff, SSG Staff

Market Garden - bridges over the lower Rhine

Postby PzB » Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:07 am

Posted a thread on the Matrix Forum about this.

For the first time the railway bridge at Heavdrom over the lower Rhine did not blow up when paras moved over it in a pbem game.

Is it a single or double dice that is rolled to determine whether these bridges are blown up or not?

The Arnhem bridge cannot be blown up because of political considerations.
Is it right to make it an option for the paras to capture one of the 2 other bridges over the lower Rhine intact? When this happens the game changes character completely. I doubt the Germans can stop the Allies after I relieved Frost on T3.

When this is said I must admit that Frost is as good as doomed when playing a good German opponent in Market Garden. A few options - like a free landing version and a small possibility to capture another crossing over the Lower Rhine may be a good thing to keep the scenario alive.
PzB

"Pursue one great decisive aim with force and determination." - Karl von Clausewitz
User avatar
PzB
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:34 pm
Location: Norway

Postby Noakesy » Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:07 am

Can't answer the technical questions you have here, but there is a freelanding version that you can play http://www.ssg.com.au/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4361 (although not sure whether this will be what you want re bridges and so on... :D)
Image ImageImage
User avatar
Noakesy
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 1968
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:23 pm
Location: UK

Postby Chris Merchant » Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:58 am

Do you mean the bridge at Heavedorp?

If you look in the editor, the bridge will blow on a roll of 2 or higher on one die when captured. You could ensure it will always blow on capture by changing this value to 'Auto Blow'.

cheers
User avatar
Chris Merchant
Lieutenant-Colonel
Lieutenant-Colonel
 
Posts: 680
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 12:28 pm
Location: Adelaide Australia

Postby PzB » Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:08 am

Ah thanx Heavedorp it is!

The capture of this bridge has provided a very interesting game.
I _think_ I will manage to save the paras this time, but my opponents counter was quite devastating. All panzers attacked and destroyed a para battalion and 2 panzer units entered the Heavedorp bridge hex.

An all out counter offensive shattered the 2 small pz units and I got the supply unit over the bridge and moved in a heavy garrison.
Seems like I have to eavcuate as many paras as possible over the Lower Rhine as they can't stand up to the massed attacks by the Germans.

Auto demolition is certainly an option, have to consider it when starting each new game. Would it be possible to make it blow on all but snake eyes to lower the chance of capturing this particular bridge?
PzB

"Pursue one great decisive aim with force and determination." - Karl von Clausewitz
User avatar
PzB
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:34 pm
Location: Norway

Postby Chris Merchant » Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:36 am

Would it be possible to make it blow on all but snake eyes to lower the chance of capturing this particular bridge?


yes that's what it is on now by default, except it's only one die that's rolled :)

ie a roll of a 1 is needed to capture without blowing. 2 or higher results in the bridge blowing. That's a 17% chance of capturing the bridge intact.

cheers
User avatar
Chris Merchant
Lieutenant-Colonel
Lieutenant-Colonel
 
Posts: 680
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 12:28 pm
Location: Adelaide Australia

Victory levels in Market Garden

Postby PzB » Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:50 am

With the bridge over the Lower Rhine captured by the 1st Para the Allies had no problems winning by 2-3000 points.

In the rematch I managed to knock out Frost in Arnhem on T3 and all 1st Para units by T16. 100 Allied units were destroyed but the result was still a draw with +234 points to the Allies.

Have there been discussions about the victory levels in Market Garden before?

If recapturing Arnhem and destroying the entire 1st Para and as many as 100 Allied units doesn't qualify as a German victory, what miracle must then be achievied - recapturing Paris? :)
PzB

"Pursue one great decisive aim with force and determination." - Karl von Clausewitz
User avatar
PzB
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:34 pm
Location: Norway

Re: Victory levels in Market Garden

Postby Treale » Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:09 pm

PzB wrote:With the bridge over the Lower Rhine captured by the 1st Para the Allies had no problems winning by 2-3000 points.

In the rematch I managed to knock out Frost in Arnhem on T3 and all 1st Para units by T16. 100 Allied units were destroyed but the result was still a draw with +234 points to the Allies.

Have there been discussions about the victory levels in Market Garden before?

If recapturing Arnhem and destroying the entire 1st Para and as many as 100 Allied units doesn't qualify as a German victory, what miracle must then be achievied - recapturing Paris? :)


SSG's victory conditions on all of there games never has made any sense to me!!!
Treale
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2003 12:32 am
Location: Central Florida

Postby Abwehr » Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:44 am

If killing 100 Allied units didn't bring you victory, that means you must've lost quite a few units yourself, as regular Allied units are worth 25 (armour) or 50 points (infantry bat.) on average, with para's coming in at 60.

Not to mention that holding Arnhem and Nijmegen would also bring you many points.

SSG's games have always been about points, not about the last man standing, which is why things can get gamey. For example, in a scenario like Fall Gelb for Battles in Italy, it is actually a good idea to just leave most of the eastern objectives alone, or even pull out of the Maginot line as the Allies, as the units you have there are worth more than the objectives in the area (an oddity found in most maps).

In most scenarios it's a good idea to check the value of the units you kill rather than just look at the objectives you can take.

The only thing about Market Garden that still bothers me is that the northern part of the map is fiction, especially around Arnhem. Other parts of the map might also not be accurate, but I'm most familiar with the region around Arnhem, considering that I live in Arnhem.

As to the Arnhem bridge: the Germans were not plagued by political considerations as much as the Allies and destroyed the bridge about a month after the end of the offensive. The bridge had also been partially destroyed during Fall Gelb. The current bridge (named after John Frost) is sort of a modernised replica of the WWII era bridge.
Abwehr
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 1041
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:23 am
Location: Arnhem, Gelderland province, the Netherlands

Postby PzB » Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:26 pm

Allied player can easily clean out a lot of German units south of Nijmegen at will. Most strong points and reinforcements are doomed if 30th Corps prioritize them with their breakthrough attacks.

In order to delay the Allies I did sacrifice units, but as you say units may be more valuable than time and objectives from a game perspective.
Think I lost 123 German to 100 Allied units. Allied had a 1000 points more from capturing objectives than Germany which held Arnhem throughout the game. Germany scored almost 800 points more in killing Allied units and this evened things out.

Actually chose to stand toe to toe with 30th Corps on the peninsula below Arnhem to earn points killing Allied units. We took out a stack of units each every turn using the special attacks, and as you say since Allied units were worth more this was a good thing for the German side.

I've been to Arnhem and inspected the bridge, liked the idyllic village of Oosterbeek :-) Difficult to say how accurate the map is without detailed studies.
PzB

"Pursue one great decisive aim with force and determination." - Karl von Clausewitz
User avatar
PzB
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:34 pm
Location: Norway

Postby Noakesy » Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:30 pm

...I must admit, I had no idea the map wasn't historical, it looks so good I didn't bother inspecting the detail. Presumably it's nothing significant though?
Image ImageImage
User avatar
Noakesy
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 1968
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:23 pm
Location: UK


Return to Battlefront Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron