Last Stand at Korson Tournament

Looking for an opponent for a PBEM game of Korsun Pocket?

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Postby Twinkle » Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:59 pm

Brubaker wrote:...

Now I have swelled his head a bit, I am going to spank him at the Steve Ford's camapign (I hope). Good luck to who gets him in the tournament.


Bru, you make me :oops: and so I start posting again... :)

I have just survived moving from Big City Tokyo to small city tajimi (outside Nagoya), so to all my opponents... have a little bit of patience with receiving the next turn, and if you haven't got it by Monday, start sending a bunch of e-mails to me.

regards
/twinkle :)
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Postby pterrok » Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:26 am

Whoa! Random weather--I hadn't noticed that on the specs...I think everyone should keep a little record of how many turns of each type of weather they get--it could make a HUGE difference!

I haven't played this one before, so I fired up some human vs human games and got Snow on turn one and it is SO completely different from getting thaw on the first turn--for both sides! If you don't keep track of the weather for the whole game, I'd be interested just to know it on turn one.


Hopefully, Rob, your implication for Tournament games in BiN is that you may be able to set up ALL the games with the same random weather, for example? (Nudge, nudge!)


Here's also the first pre-registration for your upcoming game! ;) (Acting like a moderator here: Please don't everyone sign-up for it here, WAIT for the real thread!) Oh, OK, Sorry to jump the gun...
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Postby Lee Elmendorf » Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:14 am

Got my CD earlier than expected so our game just started. Thaw on turn one, but Frozen predicted for turn 2.
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Random Weather

Postby Carrington » Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:31 am

Yes, Random weather can clearly have a big effect on balance in a scenario.

Given 12 hour turns, I'm also not entirely sure that the weather model fits reality all that well -- even Chicago (or the Soviet Steppe) doesn't see the ground freeze and unfreeze multiple times within a week.
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Postby Robjess » Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:39 pm

Whilst Random weather can significantly impact on how a game will be played it, thats the fortunes of war :)

I like the idea of random weather.. it adds variety to the scenario and it ensure that people actually have to think about the game and play it rather then go through a set of moves which they may have practised for the past 6 months knowing what weather will going to appear on what turn.
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Postby Maxblaster » Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:50 pm

I can't find the KP tournament medal, I need it for my curriculum... Can someone send me the instructions where to find it?
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Postby Robjess » Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:54 pm

It was on page 3 of this thread.. but here it is again..

Code: Select all
[img]http://www.robjess.com/bbs/images/Medals/KP.gif[/img]
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Postby pterrok » Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:29 am

robjess wrote:Whilst Random weather can significantly impact on how a game will be played it, thats the fortunes of war :)

I like the idea of random weather.. it adds variety to the scenario and it ensure that people actually have to think about the game and play it rather then go through a set of moves which they may have practised for the past 6 months knowing what weather will going to appear on what turn.


Not to open a can of worms here...but I DO like random weather and would play it in a heartbeat in, say, Wiking Whiteout. But since we're playing a 'historical' scenario, ahistorical weather WILL lead to ahistorical results. And that little competitive part of me wants everyone to be on a level playing field.

If I understand it correctly, the weather for each turn is determined randomly based on percentages provided. But since I KNOW that Thaw can come up, it is therefore possible for the entire game to be thaw--and then the Axis will NOT be able to cross that major river. Unlikely, sure, but possible, and that Axis player will be screaming in frustration...

(Now I'm at work; when I get home I'll check the editor and see what we're dealing with here. Apologies if if works something like the real game has 6 turns of each weather and then the random weather one will have 6 turns of each, just mixed-up.)
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Postby Pawlock » Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:46 am

pterrok wrote:
robjess wrote:Whilst Random weather can significantly impact on how a game will be played it, thats the fortunes of war :)

I like the idea of random weather.. it adds variety to the scenario and it ensure that people actually have to think about the game and play it rather then go through a set of moves which they may have practised for the past 6 months knowing what weather will going to appear on what turn.


Not to open a can of worms here...but I DO like random weather and would play it in a heartbeat in, say, Wiking Whiteout. But since we're playing a 'historical' scenario, ahistorical weather WILL lead to ahistorical results. And that little competitive part of me wants everyone to be on a level playing field.

If I understand it correctly, the weather for each turn is determined randomly based on percentages provided. But since I KNOW that Thaw can come up, it is therefore possible for the entire game to be thaw--and then the Axis will NOT be able to cross that major river. Unlikely, sure, but possible, and that Axis player will be screaming in frustration...

(Now I'm at work; when I get home I'll check the editor and see what we're dealing with here. Apologies if if works something like the real game has 6 turns of each weather and then the random weather one will have 6 turns of each, just mixed-up.)


I agree on the weather, especially in a small scenario which starts on thaw. From past experiences in the 48 turn campaign, I had one game that had over 20 turns in a row of thaw. In factin my games the shortest spell of thaw was around 6 turns, with a lot longer being the norm.
It would not surprise me in the least to hear of a few games where it is mostly thaw.
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Postby Carrington » Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:00 am

I like the idea of random weather as well, but would note that there are three issues with it in the game:

A) Significant effects on balance. Historical weather for the KP campaign guarantees 16 turns of frozen at start. Random weather brings a signicant chance of change each turn. Arguably, the Korsun Pocket campaign played with RW should be renamed Korsun Salient.

B) Questions about time-scale and variability: We're talking about major swings in weather over 12 hour turns. This challenges credulity.

C) Weather Model: Again, the current model allows for militarily significant changes in weather over 12 hours. In terms of air operations this is plausible, as it is in terms of spotting. But ground state changes that fast only rarely -- both mud and freeze should be much stickier. It's not that I'm asking for a "SIMearth" modelling of weather, but the Random weather function needs to be kept within some bounds of reality.

The upshot, I think, is that Random Weather is a great idea for the game: I'm quite sympathetic on this. But I don't see that there are many scenarios that are well-designed for it.

BTW: I'm quite interested in the way weather will be handled in BiN: The interesting issue, I think, being that there are at least three states of unfavorable weather: BadAir, BadGround, and Bad Sea. All are correlated, but one gets the sense that BadGround was the least important of the three states tactically.
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Postby Robjess » Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:26 am

Random Weather is on - deal with it :)

No seriously, remember this is only our 2nd Tournament.. there will be more and we will ensure that there will be a mix of historical and ahistorical tournaments.

Whilst I am would encourage all players to register for our Tournaments, generally we only have 32 slots for each Tournament - the way that we are running them as knockout comps - I would love to see a 64 slot Tournament up and running and there is no reason why we would be able to achieve it.. Im sure there are atleast 64 active players within the community :)

But the point being.. I would like us to get to the point where we have a few Tournaments running at the same time... infact I dont know how often you guys want us to run them.. do you want 5 different ones running at the same time?! We can do this!?!?

Back to my point, point being.. players should look at the settings for each of the Tournaments and then decide if they want to play in that one or not.. if you dont like the scenario (Im not familiar with the Last Stand Scenario so I sat this one out so that a newbie could take part in it although I did want the medal :D ), or if you dont like the settings of the Tournament (random weather, CA on, uknown units etc) then sit this one out and let someone else take part in it...

What I am trying to say - and I dont know if Im being very successul - is we will be having lost of Tournaments, so you will be able to pick and choose which ones you want to play in :)

Infact how about we start a Wiking Whiteout one now also then? I will start a new thread about it.
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Postby Joel137 » Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:44 am

In general I like random weather and in principle I think it is more historical. The reason being that in the actual campaigns the commanders didn't know what the weather was going to be when. And had to plan accordingly for weather changes.

And to beat a dead horse with a stick, the commanders didn't know precisely what turn the weather would change allowing them to exactly when they could no longer hold the three hex river front with arty only units, opposite three divisions of elite paratroops and panzer grenadiers. :shock:

Can the algorithm for random weather be improved? I don't know as I don't know the current algorithm. I would think that an algorithm based on probability, based on historical weather and based on last turns weather would be best. I once read that you could win even money bets on predicting the weather by predicting that tomorrows weather will be about like todays.
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Postby Twinkle » Sat Mar 13, 2004 11:20 am

robjess wrote:But the point being.. I would like us to get to the point where we have a few Tournaments running at the same time... infact I dont know how often you guys want us to run them.. do you want 5 different ones running at the same time?! We can do this!?!?


I always thought that tournament should be a little bit special, and I was a little bit surprised about seeing a second one so fast and now a third one. And we all know that Rob/JSS is working on another one (big meeting engagement, new scenario) and I guess that will start before I have time to finish any of the others... :) My point being that maybe two or three running simultaneously should be some kind of limit.

regards
/twinkle
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Postby Carrington » Sat Mar 13, 2004 11:49 am

Joel137 wrote:In general I like random weather and in principle I think it is more historical. The reason being that in the actual campaigns the commanders didn't know what the weather was going to be when. And had to plan accordingly for weather changes.

And to beat a dead horse with a stick, the commanders didn't know precisely what turn the weather would change allowing them to exactly when they could no longer hold the three hex river front with arty only units, opposite three divisions of elite paratroops and panzer grenadiers. :shock:



Yes, but they could reasonably plan a day or two ahead, if not 2-3. Here, you'll get 12 hours of frozen, 12 hours of thaw. (in Russia in January). Somewhat implausible.

This is particularly the case because much of the weather that we're discussing is ground conditions: whether the ground is frozen or not, and water conditions: whether rivers, and riverbanks, are frozen over. These things change much less quickly than air state: rain, snow, etc. will only change the ground state over time.
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Postby Joel137 » Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:00 pm

There are so many elements in these games where you can plan so much more precisely than your historical counter-part that having a few areas where your planning ability is a little worse than your counter-part strikes me as not being too bad and actually serves to balance things to a more realistic C^3 situation.

Having said that, it'd be nice to have weather estimate (prediction), (which could be wrong) as part of random weather. I'd also add that I doubt weather prediction in the early 40's was as good as what you suggest. Way more of an art than a science. I know its not that good even now. Visibility being particularly persnickety and if you are around freezing, 5-10 degrees off, and micro-climates can make a big difference with ground conditions.

Also, I don't know what people are saying about freezing and thawing ground conditions, these change all the time in 12 hour periods where I live.

The actual freezing of a river or lakes don't, at least for purposes of driving over and walking over; but I don't think the game is modeling a frozen river as much as the ground conditions near the river. At least that is what a lot of opinion around here state.
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