KP "Steve Ford's Short Campaign" Tournament

Looking for an opponent for a PBEM game of Korsun Pocket?

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Postby jpalacios35 » Sun Apr 17, 2005 3:16 pm

I had to surrender my game to Kardon.

His forces soon would be capturing the airfield.

Congratulations to the winner!
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Postby pterrok » Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:07 am

Hmmm, just finished turn 12 vs Sorceror. I managed to get ALL the units out from the SE area when he moved within FOUR hexes of my units down there on turn 2 or 3. (This would have caught me too, if I was Allies, since it's only THREE hexes in the regular game!)

I gave up Novo Mirgorod very early in order to have all those crippled guys fleeing westward--but even at one-step they could either entrench or lay detachments.

So there I was, with my soft underbelly completely exposed, but I didn't think he would take it since:

a) in the regular game so much stuff is released
b) in this game even MORE replacements are generated
c) in this game the Axis is SO far down in scheduled replacements that giving the Axis any extras is bound to be a mistake

Well, he surprised the heck out of me and took 'em all--over two turns I gained 106(!) APs which translates into 35 Infantry and 26 Armor replacement steps! Needless to say this rebuilt my entire army and will turn the game my way.

So, the question is, what are you all doing in your games? I ask because in the readme is this:

Steve Ford wrote:"I admit that this scenario does require further playtesting and balancing. Nevertheless I hope you all enjoy it. I take full responsibility for any shortcomings so feel free to vent at my expense on the discussion fora. I have broad shoulders and a thick skin so do your worst!


So we should hash out what people REALLY think about it here. Just like we found in Wiking Whiteout tournament that the concensus was that it heavily favored the Axis, what is coming up here?

My one game impression is that this one favors the Allies, though Sorceror was thinking it favored the Axis. It turns out that our natural avenues of attack as Allies are different and he would be running into Axis release towns whereas I wouldn't be.

That is, I keep the major river south of me and go for Olshana whereas he wants to go a more southern route towards Olkovets/Zvenigorodka. What are the other Allies doing or planning on doing?

I was VERY surprised at the way not only the Aixs gets replacements but also the Allies! Compared to the original it's flip-flopped over the first 10 turns and the Allies get so many that he can rebuild the forces in the pocket AND the Guards Armor! I'd like to see this ported to BiN where you could keep the pocket units in supply but prevent them from taking replacements since they get VERY strong when charged up!

I refused to pull back on the West to deal with them, though--I just sort of kept them contained, always worried that they were going to try a major breakout to get back in div int range with their fellows.

As Allies I take Votylevka and then head north over the river which still seems like the thing to do here with the way the point schedules are laid out. The Axis could still push to the west board edge if he wants--I guess the idea is that he may pull some units out to prop up the very weak East. Is that happening in any games?


BUGS:
In looking at the towns around the center I DID find that Tarassovka at 27,33 has a buggy points schedule--the turn ranges overlap. Probably the first one gets awarded up to turn 16, but I haven't tested it.

Similarly for Tolstoye.
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Postby jpalacios35 » Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:15 am

Based in my experience in this tourney, I think that this scenario favor the allies a lot.

Playing as axis it's very difficult to orquestate a coherent defense.

In the other hand, I had to face a very skillful attacker.

The bright spot of this is that I hope that this scenario will be play balanced after this tourney.

I got one bug in the scenario. In one of the western cities (do not remember exactly which one) all the time I had the control of it and the VP screen showed that the allied got some points for capture.
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Postby Cpt. Feathersword » Thu Apr 21, 2005 1:07 am

jpalacios35 wrote:Based in my experience in this tourney, I think that this scenario favor the allies a lot.

Playing as axis it's very difficult to orquestate a coherent defense.

In the other hand, I had to face a very skillful attacker.

The bright spot of this is that I hope that this scenario will be play balanced after this tourney.


I think the point of the scenario is exactly that the Axis cannot form a coherent defense and I don't think that in itself makes the scenario unbalanced. I am not putting forth any opininon as to whether or not it is balanced (I had to resign due to computer problems) but just pointing out that the challenge of the scenario for the Germans is the fact that you cannot form a traditional line and have to use delaying tactics until reinforcements arrive. It is more of a test as to whether or not you can slow the Russians down long enough and not an exercise in forming a line to meet them head on.
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Postby jpalacios35 » Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:06 am

I think the point of the scenario is exactly that the Axis cannot form a coherent defense and I don't think that in itself makes the scenario unbalanced. I am not putting forth any opininon as to whether or not it is balanced (I had to resign due to computer problems) but just pointing out that the challenge of the scenario for the Germans is the fact that you cannot form a traditional line and have to use delaying tactics until reinforcements arrive. It is more of a test as to whether or not you can slow the Russians down long enough and not an exercise in forming a line to meet them head on.



I agree with you.

But what I got trying to delay the Russian hordes was to lose a lot of units (21 in 11 turns), and kardon continued his advance without problem.

Actually my point is that it's very easy to play as the attacker. In other scenarios the attacker needs to be very aggresive (and lucky) or will be doomed soon. TAO it's a good example of it.

A very good defensive plan it's needed in order to survive against a good allied attacker.
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Postby Cpt. Feathersword » Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:46 am

I find it is easier to play as the attacker period. As a defender you have to use more finesse and need a better understanding of OP penalties than the attacker does. The attacker opens his turn and the OP penalties are whatever they are, whereas the defender must construct the OP penalties in such a way as to minimize the atackers efficiency and that is more difficult. Plus I find most people on defense are reluctant to yield much ground and that is usually their undoing, as a defender you have to know when to run away and live to fight another day even if it means giving up a VP hex, for example, some people will throw away a unit worth 35 points just to keep a VP hex for one more turn that yields them 20 points so they end up 15 points down and short a unit which makes defending the next VP hex all the harder.
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Postby pterrok » Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:48 am

Well, it's sort of the same thing here as in Breakout from Normandy. The Axis needs to drop his detachments AWAY from his units to impose the max penalty on the Allies. The bulk of the Allies have 10 OPs so you can prevent them from attacking you with a drop and retreat two hexes--the real trick is to keep away from the faster units. You need to drop and then hide behind rivers to prevent the combat shift and/or retreat another hex.

Here's the math (Sorry Manny! :lol: ): 2 OPs to move Clear to clear for Infantry, 3 OPs for Allies to move into Axis clear controlled hexes. So if the Axis drop a detachment and retreats two hexes the detachment hex becomes Allied controlled, leading to (2 + (2+7))/2 = 5.5 to move one hex, then ((2+7) + (2+7))/2 = 9 for the second hex. (NOTE that OPs penalties are pinned to 7 in KP and not 9 like in BiN.) So two hexes stops all but the fastest units since it takes 14.5 OPs.

So move one more hex back and it would be 5.5 for the first hex, ((2+7) + (2+3))/2 = 7 for the second hex and ((2+3) + (2+7))/2 = 7 for the third hex or 19.5 OPs in total.

This is why I fought like heck to get my guys out from the SE--so they could help lay detachments! When you don't have enough units to lay a full line of detachments you have to figure out the hexes you want to force the Allies to move through--i.e. cross rivers in the woods, etc. to give the same sort of slow-down.

The Allied arty bonus in this game is generally BETTER than in the full campaign, +5 on turns 1 and 3 and +4 longer than regular and +2 longer than normal...I always just felt it is their combat shift since the Axis should be behind rivers or detachments, not allowing the Allies any other green arrows. So the Axis should get into the woods and hope the Allies roll low on the 5-1's!

Writing it out this way, I see that the Axis should be able to preserve his meager forces to the picket line. I, however, tend to make counterattacks from the word go and so get hit with a few more losses than normal--but I make the Allies stop and think about how they're advancing! :P

Maybe it's not so one sided for the Allies after all...
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Postby Cpt. Feathersword » Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:23 am

I'm surprised nobody has brought up the infamous German counterattack in the west, I tried it but rolled '1's so it did not work great for me but I easily could have killed 2-3 Allied units with marginally better dice. Dang, I wish I was still in this one as I have rarley played the KP campaign :cry:.

I think the Allies can absolutely get their troops to the second picket line largely intact if they are willing to retreat early and often. I think the psycological impact of retreating is so negative many players simply refuse and take their chances with their opponents attacks.

Pterrok, I for one was not surprised to hear you decided to counterattack :wink:. You bring new meaning to the term "Keeping them honest".
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Postby jpalacios35 » Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:52 am

Here's the math (Sorry Manny! ): 2 OPs to move Clear to clear for Infantry, 3 OPs for Allies to move into Axis clear controlled hexes. So if the Axis drop a detachment and retreats two hexes the detachment hex becomes Allied controlled, leading to (2 + (2+7))/2 = 5.5 to move one hex, then ((2+7) + (2+7))/2 = 9 for the second hex. (NOTE that OPs penalties are pinned to 7 in KP and not 9 like in BiN.) So two hexes stops all but the fastest units since it takes 14.5 OPs.

So move one more hex back and it would be 5.5 for the first hex, ((2+7) + (2+3))/2 = 7 for the second hex and ((2+3) + (2+7))/2 = 7 for the third hex or 19.5 OPs in total.


THUS SPAKE PTERROK :lol:
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Postby pterrok » Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:54 am

Hope I got the math right! :lol:
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Postby Robjess » Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:15 pm

jpalacios35 wrote:The bright spot of this is that I hope that this scenario will be play balanced after this tourney.

I got one bug in the scenario. In one of the western cities (do not remember exactly which one) all the time I had the control of it and the VP screen showed that the allied got some points for capture.


Steve Ford has already shown alot of interest in looking at the results of the Tournament and Im sure he will use the data to make any adjustments he think are warranted.
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Postby Robjess » Tue May 10, 2005 5:57 pm

How are games going? Has anyone had to wait a while for turns or are they concerned their opponent may be MIA?
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Postby taiaha » Tue May 10, 2005 9:27 pm

Our game is making slow but steady progress - we've only finished turn 11 at the moment.
In the east I have fallen back to the last defensive line, though still hold both Gorodishe and Vyasovok and Novo Migorod.
Russian armour has pushed through to the outskirts of Olkovets so the pocket is well on the way to forming.
In the West, Tichonovka has fallen, though Thor has rebuilt 5th Guard Tank, and they now have division integrity... Along with 5th Mech they have pushed through Medvin and his infantry has almost reached Kidanovka. I'm struggling to keep them from breaking through.

Axis have 600pt lead, with 11 Russian units eliminated vs 12 German, but the Russians have received a lot of alert replacements and I am barely hanging on until my reinforcement divisions start turning up. Luckily, the first one arrives tomorrow... :D


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Postby Robjess » Fri May 13, 2005 9:54 pm

There been any other decided games apart from the two currently listed:

http://www.ssg.com.au/Run5/Tournaments/ ... Ladder.htm
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Postby Robjess » Fri May 13, 2005 10:09 pm

I understand that Joe has conceeded and Islander moves into Round 2. This means that Pterrok and Islander can start their games - check the Tournament Ladder for sides and you guys know the rest.

Remember that you may want to delay your start and patching to the latest version of KP if you still have Gallipoli Tournament games (Islander) in progress. Please therefore negotiate your starting times/dates in light of this privately.
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