Sealion 1940

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Postby Talos » Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:46 pm

Abwehr wrote:So you're currently making good progress with what comes down to only the infantry you start with and an additional division or two from the second wave? That's fairly surprising.

In your opinion, should I allow armoured reinforcements to land in any reasonably sized port/are with suitable facilities and a halfway decent beach?

Eastbourne doesn't and didn't have much resembling port facilities, as in: it currently seems to have a (wooden) pier, a marina and that's about it, but its beach is fairly ideal to land on. The Germans would probably have been able to beach some vessels there, unload the cargo, and move away, especially considering the size and weight of the average German tank of the time.

On the other hand, Brighton wasn't and isn't in a much better shape if you want to invade England using its beachside facilities, with 2 piers that had been sabotaged by the British prior to Sealion and the same lack of any larger harbour facilities as Eastbourne.

At the least, I could make it possible to divert infantry alert/reinforcement units to Eastbourne.

The Germans only had a few specialized landing craft, nothing like the Allied armada that invaded Normandy, but there should be some historically accurate way of getting some tanks on English soil.


I will let you know after a few more turns and see how my strategy pans out at the moment its a bit to early to tell, i will have a better idea by turn 10 how things will go longer term. In the end it may come down to balancing some VP's more rather than changing the landing locations significantly.

The only thing I can think of at the moment that might be an option is to allow the landing of armour at any port rather than splitting it between Brighton and Portsmouth for the west and and Folkstone and Dover in the east, but not even sure about this at the moment. This would allow armour to land at any four of these ports rather than having them split into separate sea lanes for east and west reinforcements. Basically once you get one you can start landing. Another alternative might be to allow landings at other locations but force the unit(s) in question to have a chance of suffering attrition attacks? and then leave it up to the player concerned.

At the moment the strong points and mines are not to much of an issue, removing some of the trucks from the allies to start with may be an option.
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Postby Abwehr » Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:04 pm

I removed two terrain objectives from the map, so the VP total for locations is currently not the same as the original designer had in mind. Compensating for those objectives elsewhere, and tweaking the unit VP's somewhat should balance the VP's again.

I'll take all the suggestions you guys give me into consideration for the next version, of course.
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Postby pete AU » Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:43 pm

Nice to see you all enjoying this scenario. To me Sealion is the 'holy grail' of 'what if' scenarios. I have a tonne of resources on the topic including many out of print books that took ages to track down.

Before I left I started tinkering with battlefront to improve the feel - but left it up in the air due to some faults in the editor that are not present in the new system. I'll probably look at redoing the whole thing in Kharkov (when I get worn out of Russian OOB's) which adds feature that will enhance the experience.

I'd be interested in a summary of any changes you've all made and indeed how you'd feel about a revision in the new system. what you did and didn't like about the original version.

Also, if you have any questions about why things are the way they are - I'll give you a POV.

Keep on tinkering

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Postby Abwehr » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:15 am

The changelist thus far is on page 1.

One of the most surprising things about the original version, to me, was that Homeguard units were so strong (I removed them from the scenario), and that German regiments were only 3 step (yet also had enormous amounts of timed steps).
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Postby pete AU » Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:23 am

Abwehr wrote:The changelist thus far is on page 1.

One of the most surprising things about the original version, to me, was that Homeguard units were so strong (I removed them from the scenario), and that German regiments were only 3 step (yet also had enormous amounts of timed steps).


The home guard idea with unlimited - but slowish to arrive and poor quality replacements was done to simulate local HG replacements attaching to a retreating 'core unit' The HG units thus being topped up by a potentially unlimited number of citizen soldiers. Now, it gets interesting. It is assumed that though vastly outclassed by regular and elite units and likley to suffer massive casualties the Germans did expect to have to take them on in every small town and village - with no quarter! It is generally assumed the HG would have been withdrawn from action after line troops stabilised the front and used as regular replacements, something to simulate this could be done with the new AO function. In the current version you can use the HG in a clever fashion and make them last forever rotating them in the line, but I would have thought you need to keep them up front to slow the germans down initially and would thus probably loose most of them.

A nice little quote from the Battle of Britain sums up British feeling at the time.

''We know how hard it is for you to get an army across the channel....... the last *little corporal* to try that came a cropper...... so please don't start dictating terms to us until you find yourself marching up Whitehall...... and even then we won't listen!!!!''

The german troops had limited means to ferry units accross the channel, this is why units start reduced and gradually build up after the initial landing. Fighting was expected to be hard, so I wanted to give the landed units ability to take hits knowing that replacements were coming and scheduled but may have to contend with the RN and RAF and would thus be slow to arrive when requested. The idea being that if a unit needs a replacement it has to wait - it will not be assigned instantly. You will note that heaps of replacements (though unusual for a BiI game) does not make the germans invincible, they are actually quite fragile, because they have only 3 steps (until the Germans captured London they knew they were in a very unsafe position and my intention was to make things feel too hard for the germans). The large number of replacements simulates the reassignment of scheduled replacements if a unit is totally destroyed. So, though the units look like they have heaps of replacements many will not be used. If you look in detail how the replacements are applied across the scenario's early turns you will see they are staggered to replicate the number of crossings planned in each stage of the invasion. Now, with AO the whole game opens up. The germans had replacements slated when objectives were reached, and new divisions were to be released only if things were going well. AO allows more control over what the units can do in these circumstances and will get the game closer to actual german planning for progressive build up.

The reality is that not enough troops were assigned and the germans should fail (has anyone captured london?).
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Postby Abwehr » Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:53 am

Some Home Guard units had a defense rating of 12, which was simply staggering. The Home Guard would at this point have used mostly vintage weaponry, and would probably have collapsed fairly quickly, as British politicians and the British people were not quite as determined against all opposition as the myths constructed post-war wanted them to be.

In general, I felt units were very powerful in your version, more than in most of the BiI scenarios, so I weakened most of the truly powerful units somewhat.

A 2 battalion (3 step) Panzer regiment with an attack strength of 40 including divisional bonus was WAY too strong, for example.

Although German armour is still very strong, in my opinion it's more balanced in my version.

The original scenario was quite good for what you were trying to achieve with it, but I'm currently trying if I can modify it to implent some of the changes to scenario design and philosophy on unit strengths of the last 2.5+ years.

Unit strengths in Kharkov:DotD are very high, mostly favouring the Germans (the Soviets hardly got a boost in most cases), as are movement ratings, so using the standards set by the standard Kharkov:DotD scenario, the Germans would probably blow across England like a whirlwind.
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Postby Carl Myers » Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:36 am

Unit strengths in Kharkov:DotD are very high, mostly favouring the Germans (the Soviets hardly got a boost in most cases), as are movement ratings, so using the standards set by the standard Kharkov:DotD scenario, the Germans would probably blow across England like a whirlwind.

Doubtful, air superiority would not guarantee naval superiority. Even a modest invasion would require a dozen supply ships a day.
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Postby Abwehr » Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:28 am

What I meant was that if the German strengths from Kharkov:DotD would be ported to Sealion 1940 in BiI, with Allied strength increased on a more limited scale, the Germans would have a much easier time in the scenario.

There is no Royal Navy in the scenario, strictly speaking, and the Germans can always land their initial forces and many reinforcements.

Sealion in mid 1940 is one of the few hypotheticals that is fairly senseless to discuss, but still interesting scenarios, as it was more or less impossible for the Germans to get across the Channel to begin with, especially after the RAF knocked around 25% of their invasion fleet (with hardly any oceanworthy vessels and a relatively small amount of seaworthy vessels) out of action.
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Postby pete AU » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:42 am

Its interesting. The UK has actually spent alot of $ on research. Some papers are on the web if you do a search.

The british military have done simulations also.

They reckon July 1940 - straight after Dunkirk was the only chance hitler had to do it for all sorts of reasons. Interestingly if the Italians, vicy French and perhaps the Spanish were involved (with their respective navies) - who knows.
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Why reinvent the wheel?

Postby critter » Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:28 am

I don't think it makes since to change stuff only to change it back. The original game had the Germans invading at the Hythe and taking it and the Air field.
Eastborn was also taken easily and Brighton was taken on turn 1 or 2 depending on the carpet bombing die rolls. This is how the sea supply routes were set up and I don't see any reason to change it
The German units didn't need to be messed with as they land needing to take steps and they took losses anyway.
The German units in the South were always a problem and they are taken out in every game. 7 times out of 7
Ain't no way minefields should have been added to every hex as there weren't that many mines in all of France in 44. Also Abwehr's version makes the Germans spend a week hooking up after landing 2 corps in the swamps. Plus they now either got to roll 1-2.. 10-1 attacks or take 33% chance attrition against strong pts that are manned by the lost Home guard that at least had the chance to surrender.
The main problem with Pete's version was the Brits were forcred back to the London line and they were too weak to counter attack. Plus the fact that the German div's in the South are useless and have died in every game I've played H2H.
What I believe is needed is somewhere around turn 25 or so the British need to be able to put on a all out attempt to push the Germans back.
The British should not get points for cities they already hold. The fact that the Germans are in Britian assumes that the Germans won the air war and have made the HMS Navy stay away because of losses. But around turn 25 or so the Germans should be running out of channel boats and aircraft and by husbanding their resources the Brits should be able to try and push the Hun back.
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Postby Carl Myers » Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:56 am

The fact that the Germans are in Britian assumes that the Germans won the air war and have made the HMS Navy stay away because of losses.

Remember the old naval adage, bombs let in air and torpedos let in water. Even if a battleship had all of its super structure destroyed by Stukas, it is still a 30+ thousand ton ship doing 30 knots.
Of course there would have to be daily sweeps of the ports on both sides of the Channel for mines left in the night by British submarines.
A few dozen British submarines patrolling the Channnel could cause major disruptions in German shipping.
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My Fix

Postby critter » Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:59 am

I'm not a programer.. But if I could
I'd leave it version 1. (Pete's)
Reduce British air int chances for at least the first 20 turns. Partisans blown bridges and an increase mine allottment should keep the Germans from having it all their own way. Its usually a draw after it reaches the strong point line any way.
The Germans should have increased Air attacks and replacement steps up untill turn 20 or so then taper off to represent night Raf / HMS attacks on their shipping and Hitler losing faith that it can be done. The 2 German div's in the South should land at Brighton on turn 2. This will let the German decide if Portsmouth or a stonger push on London is needed.
British cities should give the Players more units and replacements when captured or recaptured by each side. Momentum...
The British should have a steady replacement (Higher) rate the whole sen. They are forced to either use them and stop the Germans at the beaches or save them...fall back and use them say around turn 25 to gain ground and kill German units.
Around turn 25 the British should recieve Stronger Reinforcements that need alott of replacements. If he has defended well he can use his surplus to fill these out and launch a strong counter attack.
Can the Home Guard be set to evolve into inf units say turn 25-30? This would free alott of British strenght that were used as backbone to keep the Home Guard from surrendering.
This should force the German to go all out and win by turn 40 or Hitler pulls the plug. Around turn 25-30 the British bull dog bites back with all it has. He either pushes the German back and inflicks losses enough to save the Empire or make peace.
Just a thought......
Last edited by critter on Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby critter » Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:09 pm

Carl Myers wrote:The fact that the Germans are in Britian assumes that the Germans won the air war and have made the HMS Navy stay away because of losses.

Remember the old naval adage, bombs let in air and torpedos let in water. Even if a battleship had all of its super structure destroyed by Stukas, it is still a 30+ thousand ton ship doing 30 knots.
Of course there would have to be daily sweeps of the ports on both sides of the Channel for mines left in the night by British submarines.
A few dozen British submarines patrolling the Channnel could cause major disruptions in German shipping.


My reply would be..... Crete.. The British left because they didn't want to lose the shipping it would take to hold it. Malta was open to another Airborne drop for the same reason. It's kinda hard to argue as Sea Lion didn't happen. For it to happen the Germans would have had to control the channel. As we all know the navy couldn't do it. It had to be the Lufftwaffe.
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Postby Talos » Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:22 pm

Some interesting debate. For what its worth i think things are more balanced at the moment.

As i noted previously i will only be able to see how things are going at about turn 10. Should add at the moment i am fairly confident of getting some sort of victory. It would be debatable if i could carry on doing this though at the very least things would get slower. Their is another high risk strategy i could use as well, which would be more effective if it worked, but is a lot more prone to being a total disaster.

As regards the forces in the far west. Something does need to be done about them, but i am not sure what. On their own they can be taken out by the British forces, though I would not do so until a lot later in the game, first priority is to restrict the invasion a much as possible and get as many forces to repel the invaders and restrict their movement. The Germans forces in the west can be taken care of a lot later in the game with the reinforcements that arrive, when the Germans have been held on the beaches. Adding them to the Brighton invasion on turn 2 would make the attack here very strong and probable to tough for the British forces. Maybe turn 3 and 4 might be an option.
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Postby Abwehr » Sat Aug 15, 2009 2:23 am

Ain't no way minefields should have been added to every hex as there weren't that many mines in all of France in 44.


The minefields also represented abstracted Home Guard units, as noted earlier, but I'll reduce their number a bit and restrict the minefields to more important areas.

Also Abwehr's version makes the Germans spend a week hooking up after landing 2 corps in the swamps.


I didn't do anything to the sealanes, so this has nothing to do with my edits.

The German units didn't need to be messed with as they land needing to take steps and they took losses anyway.


In the original version, many German units could refit all their steps, +1. There is zero historical reason to allow German regiments to completely refit themselves and still get a bonus timed step.

This isn't Normandy 1944 and the Germans most certainly don't have many manpower reserves at this point, as the last part of the war in France was a war of attrition which the Germans were not all that certain to win in short order until the French surrender. Less than a month after the end of Fall Rot, the German army was more certainly not refitted.

Plus they now either got to roll 1-2.. 10-1 attacks or take 33% chance attrition against strong pts that are manned by the lost Home guard that at least had the chance to surrender.


I didn't change the combat value of the actual strongpoints, only removed their release units. The combat rolls you're getting are the same as in the original.

The British should not get points for cities they already hold.


In that case they'll just all hole up in London eventually, turning it into a fortress, as there's little reason to stay in the open if cities no longer give points.

My reply would be..... Crete.. The British left because they didn't want to lose the shipping it would take to hold it.


The British withdrew from Crete after the ground war was turning quickly against them when the first German ground troops started to land, not just because the Luftwaffe was around. Also, at Crete, the Regia Marina was around with the British having little means to stop a decisive Italian strike supported by German medium bombers. There would hardly be any friendly warships in the area for the Germans during Sealion.

It's also impossible for the Germans to win the air war in less than a month, so I'm not going to change German air interdiction much. The British decided to keep most of their aircraft at home rather than in France, which ended up saving their country in the Battles of Britain. In a July 1940 Sealion scenario, the RAF would be very much alive and kicking.

The German forces in the south-west are hindered by the edge of the map, which more or less traps them from the beginning, but the British do need units to keep them contained and need a halfway decent force to kill them against a good German player.

Thus far, I think the initial landings should be easier, eand there should be less strongpoints around the Fallschirmjaeger dropzone so the Germans have a chance of capturing it.

If I knew how to add units, I'd create evolve units for the 22nd Luftlande which would land on a major road if the airfield is not captured (as they did in the Netherlands).[/quote]
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