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Postby Noakesy » Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:44 pm

Haplo_Patryn wrote:Abwehr, did you at last resolve the problem about reemplacements in Kharkov scenario? Did SSG give you and answer to your problem with them?

Thanks.


I hope so as Abwehr was doing a good job on it, but I fear he didn't get the answers he was looking for :cry:
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Postby Abwehr » Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:52 am

In a message from two weeks Roger stated he'd work on it now that Gregor is back, so I'm sure SSG is trying to resolve the problem, although they're quite busy with other things.

This does mean that all my edited scenarios are currently on hold, unfortunately, as I need the system to work prior to completing the editing of Fall Gelb and Kharkov 1943. If the problem somehow can't be fixed, I'll have to find a way around the problem, by modifying unit stats for example.
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Postby Abwehr » Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:27 am

I've made more changes:

-All units now start at full strength, as the timed steps with KIA's didn't work.

-Most of the units that arrive later would be refitted prior to reaching the front to begin with, and the initial strengths of the opposing forces should be fairly balanced as both sides start at full strength, although the Axis will need to start running earlier.

-Popov's crew will arrive 1 turn later than they originally did, to avoid too much of an avalance simply blowing away the Axis. They are at full strength, so you could interpret the 1 turn delay as gathering all their strength in off map assembly areas.

-Guards infantry unit and elite Soviet mechanized units get 2 replacements. Everything else is limited to 1, except for Popov's guys.

-German infantry with the exception of the security units now have an AT variable of -3.

-German mechanized PzG's and recon battalions now have a fixed +1 Tank value, so that they're more useful on the offense after taking a hit. This represents the better equipped German halftracks and recon units compared to their Soviet counterparts. Soviet mechanized infantry units still don't get a tank variable.

-The SS StuGs are now tied to a division, and thus get a divisional integrity bonus. This is to represent the heavier weapons in an SS division compared to regular Panzer divisions. The BiI system usually abstracts part of the divisional strength compared to the Kharkov system, but giving the SS divisions 5 units shouldn't be too problematic. The StuG units arrive by rail at the same turn and hex as the rest of their division. Wiking arrives normally, as it arrives on turn 4/5.

-Soviet and Axis air interdiction chances in bad weather increased slightly.

-German mechanized replacements changed slightly: every 7 day the Germans get 2 replacements to model tanks being repaired in workshops and returning to the front. The Soviets don't have that luxury, but get increased replacements in the first few turns to counter that. Soviet replacements are lower than Germans replacements in any case, as this is the end of the Soviet winter offensive and replacements are directed elsewhere (historically, this was one of the primary flaws in the Soviet attack plan).

-The Axis are no longer surprised. This might sound like a big change, but surprise is mostly useful if there are numerous enemy formations way behind the frontline. In this scenario, there are three Germans infantry divisions, the security division and some support units. It's not like they're going to let the Germans roll into Moscow. With the significantly increased Soviet initial strength, this should give the Axis some flexibility in the earlier turns. If the Soviet steamroller proves to be more than the Axis can handle, they can also retreat early.

I believe that's about it.

I'm still considering whether it's a good idea to make attacks across a major river possible, with a red arrow, to avoid the rather gamey Axis strategy of creating a line of all kinds of units along the first major river.
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Postby Abwehr » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:54 am

The link to the new file: http://rapidshare.com/files/319948403/Kharkov.7z.html

You still can't attack across major rivers. I think the other changes in the scenario need to be tested prior to changing the major river hexsides.
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Postby Carl Myers » Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:29 pm

All units now start at full strength, as the timed steps with KIA's didn't work.


If the Auto Pool field is set to Limit of 'Y' then the Auto Repair field has to be set to 'X' Turn Delay to work with intial KIA's.
Set the Auto Pool to Inexhaustible and the Auto Repair field to Permanent KIA in order to have units repair refit.
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Postby Abwehr » Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:19 pm

So you think that, despite having spend hours on the scenario and on the problem, I didn't actually go to the editor to set a delay for timed replacements and a limit to the pool? Your comment is also pretty late considering that this was a problem from half a year ago.

It's a problem with the engine, which SSG has acknowledged but isn't going to fix.
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Postby Carl Myers » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:42 am

It's a problem with the engine, which SSG has acknowledged but isn't going to fix.


Got it, the initial KIA mechanism works in Shingle but not in this scenario.
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Postby Abwehr » Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:17 am

Got it, the initial KIA mechanism works in Shingle but not in this scenario.


Not sure if you're trying to be sarcastic. It's a different issue in any case.

In Shingle, the 3rd PzG refits up to its original strength. In other words: the unit gets as many timed steps as it has initial KIA's. 3rd PzG ends with no timed steps for units with initial KIA's.

The problem appears when you give a unit enough timed steps to repair the initial KIA's, and additional timed steps after that.

The engine doesn't seem to know what to do and lets the unit refit for free, and adds the timed steps that should be used for refitting the initial KIA's to the total. If you want a unit to refit 2 initial KIA's and have 2 timed steps afterwards, the unit gets 4 timed steps. At the end of the refitting process, the unit will still have 4 timed steps. That's the problem.

Again: the problem isn't new, and I'm not going to waste more energy trying to explain it over and over. SSG said they won't fix it, so that's the end of it.

I also just noticed that you made the same comment in the July thread about the issue as you made here, namely that you still seem to think I missed the delay or timed step pool settings. Saying you're not being very helpful for repeating that "advice" again in this thread would be an understatement.
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Split the diff

Postby critter » Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:49 am

Abwehr..Why not give the unit say 3-4 steps..Then change the attack /def values?
You could have a unit with slightly more power for 1 less step. Also the slightly increased unit would take the first hit in a combat loss.
OR
The easiest way would be just make it so the unit refits to full strenght and give the side 2 extra replacements. If the player wants to use it for another unit. Its considered a detachment sent to bolster the line.

Spread the repl steps out over several turns and its even. the whole process is abstracted enough that it shouldn't matter.
You get an inf replacement point. 2 units need it..one of them is an elite SS PG unit, the other is a reg 77 div inf unit. You'd like to use it on the SS unit but the 77th div is right in the middle of the suspected attack defense.
The same repl goes from normal to elite SS depending on how you use it. Put it out there as close as you can make it... Fire and forget...
Keep up the good work
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Postby Abwehr » Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:31 am

The easiest way would be just make it so the unit refits to full strenght and give the side 2 extra replacements. If the player wants to use it for another unit. Its considered a detachment sent to bolster the line.


I considered doing that, but there were a lot of understrength German units. If I had to give the Axis as a whole more replacements, that could seriously unbalance the scenario due to the sheer number of timed steps I would have to compensate.

One of your fears for the Fall Gelb scenario was that I was giving the Allies more of everything. We even had a bit of a fight about that.

Well, I'm actually trying not to unbalance one side too much and giving the Axis an extra replacement for unit that starts with KIA's would give them a pretty impressive pool.

The Axis player could just let all the lousy units die and save up all the replacements for the Panzer and SS units, making them pretty much unkillable. The main problem is that there are only 2 kind of replacements which everyone on the battlefield can draw from.

Imagine trying to cross one of the major rivers as the Soviets, facing three Panzer divisions. You blew through a few weak infantry divisions, and now face Panzer divisions. However, those Panzer divisions have a pretty impressive pool of global replacements at their disposal and are going to cost you a pretty much absurd effort to kill, as they can repair most of the damage done to them each turn.

The balance issue I'm currently trying to test is whether Popov's crew isn't an unstoppable menace now that it starts at full strength. Of course, Axis units also start at full strength, but the advantage is clearly with the Soviets, especially after the avalance of quality Soviet units from the north-east arrives, albeit luckily in an area with a very poor infrastructure.

The unit step values are already non-standard and I'm guessing the original scenario designer uses a similar formula to Pete AU for steps, namely that they represent combat value as well as men. Battalions in Kharkov 1943 are 3 steps. I could change them back to 2 steps, but thus far they seem to work fine with 3 steps. Panzer divisions have a little more staying power and Tank brigades are split up to give the Soviets a clear advantage in the amount of armoured units they can use against the Axis.

The Axis starting at full strength isn't entirely historical as there were few tanks in the Panzer divisions at the start, but the original scenario designer had already abstracted that because a 4 step German Panzer regiment could theoretically represent little more than an overstrength battalion. The units arriving later on would refit prior to reaching the frontline.

The initial Soviet punch is greater than in the original scenario, so I'm curious how the first few turns will unfold. I've just begun playtesting the scenario with Noakesy, who also assisted me with testing the earlier versions.

If allowing all units to start at full strength doesn't work, I'll have to find a workaround by editing combat strengths, but that's a very time consuming process so I'm hoping this will work.
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Postby Abwehr » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:31 pm

I forgot to cut Kamenka's points down a size, as there seemed to have been a 0 too many behind every point score (30 instead of 3 and so on) which meant that the Soviet player can get about 700 points more or less for free.

New version:

http://rapidshare.com/files/322512668/Kharkov.7z.html
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Postby Abwehr » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:06 pm

I spend so much time on the units and preventing the scenario from crashing that I didn't check every interdiction feature or CRT.

More changes:

German artillery now interdicts in a 1 hex radius (2 was too much) at a cost of 2 OP points to the Soviets, the Soviets are still hex only also with an OP penalty of 2. Many scenarios use a higher OP penalty for artillery, like 3 or higher, but I felt that increasing the penalty further would make it too easy for the Germans to lock whole sections of the frontline down if needed. A penalty of 2 seems reasonable to me considering that the CRT's require a fair amount of OP's to move through as is.

I've changed the CRT's for light and heavy forts a bit, and turned the hills CRT from "clear" to "woods." Urban CRT's have also been changed. Urban fighting is now more bloody for both sides, as it should be.

-->Minor river hexsides are now Normal attack/no tactical shift in normal weather and half attack/no tactical shift in blizzard conditions. Major rivers are half attack/no tactical shift in normal weather and no attack in blizzard conditions (it would be pure suicide to attack across a wide river in a blizzard).<--

Air interdiction tuned down a bit: good weather 4/3 for the Germans, 3/2 for the Soviets, bad weather 2/1 for the Germans, 1/0 for the Soviets. Flying in the middle of a blizzard is dangerous and should not yield high OP penalties.

I've placed 2 extra railroad hexes on the southside of the map so the railroad is continuous, instead of disappearing (the bend in the railway is one hex south of the map's edge). I've also placed a few minor roads for the Soviets on the eastern side of the map to link roads that connect just outside the map's edge.

The 4 Hungarian units are now in a 40% divisional integrity Hungarian Second Army remnants division.

Support assets (barrages, carpet bombing) changed a bit, nothing major. The Axis now have a few days later in the game where they get 2 carpet bombing attacks about once a week. On other days in the later weeks they get 1. Axis carpetbombing attacks still hit twice. As the Axis only get 1 carpetbombing attacks later on, and basically none in the first few weeks, this shouldn't unbalance the game. The Axis player can choose to hit one or two stacks real hard, but he won't break a line just with carpet bombing. The Axis also have a few days where they get 3 air interdictions, but again not many.

The SS units no longer arrive by rail, after testing they could get to the frontline quickly enough in any case. With rail transport they would be able to park right next to the frontline in their arrival turn.

Soviet units are slightly more visible as they have slightly increased hidden ranges.

Defending the major river with non-combat units was too gamey, so both sides can now attack across major rivers and the minor river isn't as much of an obstacle as it used to be. They would still be partially frozen in any case.

http://rapidshare.com/files/327432842/Kharkov.7z.html

This version should be the latest version for a while now, as the major issue that was bugging me was the major river allowing for a gamey defense.
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Postby enric » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:43 am

Abwehr

I think Is it possible to attach the scenario to the post in the forum.

Why use Rapidshare where you usually get "There are no more download slots available for free users right now." ?

Thank you for the scenario anyway.
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Postby Abwehr » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:21 am

The scenario is 30MB, a bit cumbersome for the forum I'd guess.

RapidShare is far from perfect, and I know there are times when you can't download anything as a free user, but at this point I don't know of a good alternative.

The scenario might eventually be uploaded to the SSG website, but only the finished version.

So, sad as it might be, we're stuck with RapidShare for now.
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Postby Noakesy » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:52 pm

enric wrote:Why use Rapidshare where you usually get "There are no more download slots available for free users right now." ?


It can be a bit 'ad hoc' but I use Rapidshare to download some scenarios that individuals are testing and so on. It's worked for me today, reckon it's stuffed up by lots of people on xmas holidays.

Great scenario though, hopefully one day I'll play the whole thing all the way through (now the major river attacks have changed it stops the game becoming a stalemate too quickly). :D
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