Fall Gelb - The Battle for the Low Countries

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Call it done already

Postby critter » Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:56 am

Your having problems because you've changed the battle so much it's no longer France 40. It's more of your version of what "should" have been.
It seems funny to me that what should have been changed, the Luftwaffe's awsome power, now needs to be beefed up due to the other changes.
Given the history..The Netherlands and Belgium wanted to go it alone, the British weren't ready or even wanted to be there and even the French didn't fight for their country well either. The results were pretty well set.
I suggest you get to a point and call it done. Then have everyone play the AI so you can reset the VP cities based on the results of the games.
Then start a tournament so we can judge the H2H version using the same setup.
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Postby jjdenver » Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:30 pm

Ah well I think this thing should be ported to the Kharkov system.

However to answer the question about the BiI version. It seems like the Germans were able to pick a spot and quickly break through. Even after Dunkirk when the Germans turned on Paris and the French Army fought pretty hard, the Germans were able to achieve breakthroughs wherever they went, just as they did in Russia a year later. With the density and size of French units in the scenario this seems tough to do for Germany.

So perhaps reduce combat power of French units (not steps but strength), increase German odds shifts from extra hexes, reduce German penalty to move into enemy territory?
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Re: Call it done already

Postby jjdenver » Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:31 pm

critter wrote:Your having problems because you've changed the battle so much it's no longer France 40. It's more of your version of what "should" have been.


My feeling is that the scenario as originally released wasn't "france 40" either. It was fun but too easy for the Germans to completely shut down the Germans.
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Postby Amgot » Mon Jul 26, 2010 5:45 pm

I tend to think too that making too many changes to the original scenario will inevitably ruin the original balance.
Admittedly, I have only played the scenario once, using Abwehr's latest corrections and against a weaker opponent who played as the Allies. Still, we had some great fun and the only complaints we had was that the Allies needed some slight beefing up such as:

- giving the regular French infantry regiments a fourth step and 1 anti-shock point (no need to modify their strength). That way, the independant AT units could be useful by providing support to recon units and other units which don't have any anti-shock point.

- making the French armored divisions a little bit more useful by 1. slightly increasing their movement points and 2. giving the B1-bis units 3 shock points instead of 2.


Obviously, the fact that I played as the Germans against a weaker Allied opponent means that we felt the Allies needed some beefing up. Against an experienced opponent, we might have had just the opposite conclusion, so feel free to disregard my comments.
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Postby Abwehr » Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:45 pm

Your having problems because you've changed the battle so much it's no longer France 40. It's more of your version of what "should" have been.


It's getting a bit tiresome to hear you say that, or to hear you say that I've given the Allies "more of everything" in previous versions, which I didn't as at the time I didn't know how to add new units.

The game you gave up because according to you I added more units didn't actually include more units for the Allies. You gave up because you ran into a defensive wall you couldn't break, but that was possible in the original too.

It seems funny to me that what should have been changed, the Luftwaffe's awsome power, now needs to be beefed up due to the other changes.


The "Luftwaffe's awesome power" is not really "awesome" at all, unless according to you a grand total of 3 or 4 air strikes each turn is "awesome power". What was changed was the interdiction, because it was basically too much. What I mentioned in my previous post concerned Luftwaffe tactical air support. If you think 3 or 4 air strikes each turn are an accurate representation of the Luftwaffe's air superiority/air supremacy, I'll have to disagree.

Given the history..The Netherlands and Belgium wanted to go it alone, the British weren't ready or even wanted to be there and even the French didn't fight for their country well either. The results were pretty well set.


I suggest you read a few history books about the battles in the Low Countries and France.

Nothing that can be done in my versions is impossible in the original version, it's just less likely due to the Luftwaffe interdiction, but it's certainly not impossible. A hex defended by most of a division, or even an entire division is just as unbreakable now as it was in the original version.

The best option might indeed be to port the scenario to the Kharkov/ATD2 system, I've been discussing that option with Pete AU. The same probably goes for Kharkov 1943/Last victory in Russia. The limits of the BiI engine are becoming a bit too obvious.

That would mean my previously released version would be the last update for the BiI engine.
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Postby jjdenver » Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:28 pm

Abwehr wrote:The best option might indeed be to port the scenario to the Kharkov/ATD2 system, I've been discussing that option with Pete AU. The same probably goes for Kharkov 1943/Last victory in Russia. The limits of the BiI engine are becoming a bit too obvious.

That would mean my previously released version would be the last update for the BiI engine.


That would be great news. I'd love to play this in the new system.
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Postby jjdenver » Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:29 pm

Amgot wrote:I tend to think too that making too many changes to the original scenario will inevitably ruin the original balance.
Admittedly, I have only played the scenario once, using Abwehr's latest corrections and against a weaker opponent who played as the Allies. Still, we had some great fun and the only complaints we had was that the Allies needed some slight beefing up such as:


Ah well my feeling was that in the original it was far too easy for the allies to bring the blitz to a screeching halt. So maybe it was because your allied opponent was inexperienced.
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Postby Strax » Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:10 am

Abwehr wrote:

The best option might indeed be to port the scenario to the Kharkov/ATD2 system, I've been discussing that option with Pete AU. The same probably goes for Kharkov 1943/Last victory in Russia. The limits of the BiI engine are becoming a bit too obvious.

That would mean my previously released version would be the last update for the BiI engine.


Mouth watering :D
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Postby critter » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:39 am

Abwehr wrote:The game you gave up because according to you I added more units didn't actually include more units for the Allies. You gave up because you ran into a defensive wall you couldn't break, but that was possible in the original too.




I suggest you read a few history books about the battles in the Low Countries and France.

Nothing that can be done in my versions is impossible in the original version, it's just less likely due to the Luftwaffe interdiction, but it's certainly not impossible. A hex defended by most of a division, or even an entire division is just as unbreakable now as it was in the original version.


There again you are full of crap. The version we tried was one where you took away German air int. gave the allies more AT value, mobility and even an interdiction counter to represent "fleeing refugees". Which instead of random you put it so I coudn't reach Sedan on time.
You then used all the extra mobility and the lack of German int to surround some of my units with French recon units and attack with the Brits. Added to the extra exchange losses due to stronger Allied units it wasn't worth playing anymore.
I notice you forget to mention you wouldn't take the Germans on a rematch.
You're really nuts if you think the Allies can form an unbreakable line in the original game. Care to bet??? I'll bet you the cost of Kharkov.
You've freely admitted you don't play the sen's vs the AI much. I've played 8 mirror H2H matches and the AI at least 15 times. Come on..Put your money where you're mouth is.
Read a book? What are you 23? I'm 50 and have been playing wargames and reading history since before I was 8. Which means I was studying history 19- 20 years before your dad got to 2nd base with your mom.
The above two posts about strengthing the Germans make my point. You're obsession with "there's got to be a way" has tilted it to far.
Let me know when you wanna play the original. We can do an AAR
Last edited by critter on Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:43 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby critter » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:49 am

jjdenver wrote:
Amgot wrote:I tend to think too that making too many changes to the original scenario will inevitably ruin the original balance.
Admittedly, I have only played the scenario once, using Abwehr's latest corrections and against a weaker opponent who played as the Allies. Still, we had some great fun and the only complaints we had was that the Allies needed some slight beefing up such as:


Ah well my feeling was that in the original it was far too easy for the allies to bring the blitz to a screeching halt. So maybe it was because your allied opponent was inexperienced.


In the original? :shock:

I think the same can be said about your German players experience. In 8 matches I've played it was 8-0 German decisive victorys. I'd slaughter his Allies, while he'd be slaughtering mine.
You get a spot open, I'd like to try your defense.
It would be worth it to eat crow just to see it done. :twisted:
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Postby Abwehr » Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:12 pm

There again you are full of crap. The version we tried was one where you took away German air int. gave the allies more AT value, mobility and even an interdiction counter to represent "fleeing refugees". Which instead of random you put it so I coudn't reach Sedan on time.


Could you point out which units I added, as you specifically said I gave the Allies "more of everything" which would primarily mean units? Naturally, I didn't add any, but you seem to be incapable of acknowledging that.

I didn't "take away" German interdiction, I lowered its effectiveness. The AT changes to primarily French units were minimal and I added a single partisan interdiction. Given the number of roads in the Ardennes, it's nonsense to say that a single partisan units stopped you from reaching Sedan, you could still have reached it easily using extended movement. Other testers did so, only you didn't.

You then used all the extra mobility and the lack of German int to surround some of my units with French recon units and attack with the Brits. Added to the extra exchange losses due to stronger Allied units it wasn't worth playing anymore.


"Stronger Allied units"? Yes, I'm sure that 1 extra strength point on some French elite units made all the difference.

What you forget to mention, probably because it doesn't exactly support your cause, was where I attacked your overexposed Panzer formations (advancing without any support). I attacked them south of Brussels, a reasonable distance to the west of the Dyle Line. Considering that the Dyle Line was the historical defensive line, how am I using "all the extra mobility" to advance to a line closer to my starting position? It doesn't make sense. I advance less far than the Allies did historically, yet me being able to do so is ahistorical and unbalanced?

I notice you forget to mention you wouldn't take the Germans on a rematch.


In all my tests, I only play the side I've changed the most, to get a better feel for the balance of the scenario. I had barely touched the Germans at that point, which is why I chose not to play with them.

You're really nuts if you think the Allies can form an unbreakable line in the original game. Care to bet??? I'll bet you the cost of Kharkov.


Considering that the Germans:

-Can't really interdict the Allies from moving to the defensive spots I picked.
-Didn't have enough artillery to attack good Allied stacks.
-Would be slowed down by French artillery interdiction (they get a lot of interdiction capable artillery units, see for yourself).

Not much would change.

You've freely admitted you don't play the sen's vs the AI much. I've played 8 mirror H2H matches and the AI at least 15 times. Come on..Put your money where you're mouth is.


Where have I "freely admitted" that? I've only recently been participating in PBEM's, before that I only played against the AI. Heck, I even tested the original version of this scenario against the AI. The reason I don't play Fall Gelb vs the AI much is that the scenario's too big for the AI and playing against it isn't a challenge. The defensive strategy I've tried against you hasn't failed me once thus far.

Read a book? What are you 23? I'm 50 and have been playing wargames and reading history since before I was 8. Which means I was studying history 19- 20 years before your dad got to 2nd base with your mom.


Your point being? That you know so much more about Fall Gelb? I doubt it.

The above two posts about strengthing the Germans make my point. You're obsession with "there's got to be a way" has tilted it to far.


Historically, there was "a way" to seriously screw up the German timetable, why should there not be "a way" in a scenario?

Let me know when you wanna play the original. We can do an AAR


The original has 4 problems that make it ahistorical:

-The Germans only need to capture Rotterdam to make the Dutch surrender. There is basically no way the Allied player can prevent the capture of Rotterdam on turn 4. The Axis can divert all units to the southern Netherlands and Belgium on turn 1 and don't even have to attack the Grebbeline.

-When Antwerp and Brussels are captured, all Belgian forces will be out of supply because Brugge isn't a supply depot (Brubaker intended it to be, but missed it). There's also a decent chance the Belgian supply units will die before that.

-The British are easily forced out of supply, even when they're way to the west of their historical line.

-Luftwaffe interdiction is too tough, primarily due to the low OPs of Allied units. Many units can't really move at all when interdicted. (The same goes for the masses of French heavy artillery).

Even with those disadvantages, however, the Allies can still form something resembling the line I formed against you.

The reason why I'm not going to play against you again is pretty simple: no matter what happens, you'll always blame it on me or proclaim something is ahistorical. When you advance with your Panzers without anything supporting them, you'll cry foul when they're attacked and destroyed. You'll find something to blame, anything except your own strategy. You're also rude and childish (the problem is always something unrelated to you), which goes to show that although you're a lot older than me, your manners are often less mature. Considering that you will never be capable of blaming yourself for the mistakes you would make, I have no intention of playing against you again, as it's a lose-lose situation for me and a waste of time.
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Postby Abwehr » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:32 pm

As I've really had it with critter and his stubborn insistence that I've changed so many important things since the original, I've taken screenshots of the first two Allied turns so you can see why what I did was quite possible. The line isn't unbreakable in the entire game, naturally, but it is more or less unbreakable for the Panzers, which is what matters as you're trying to stall the Germans as the Allies. There's pretty much no way the Axis can meet their timetable this way.

It's not entirely optimised, it would be further ironed out on turn 3 and 4, but I just wanted to show that creating such a line is possible.

What will eventually kill this defence are the flaws of the scenario when playing as the Allies that I noted earlier. The main reason the defence works is due to the limitations of the BiI engine and the fact that combat isn't really deadly, so it will take a slugging match to break through. People like critter will, however, continue to insist that it is all due to my changes. Also keep in mind that due to Axis interdiction, it's impossible for the Allies to actually reach their historical line in many places, which is why a defence to the rear makes a lot of sense.

As you can see, there's a lack of Axis interdiction in the screenshots. The reasons are pretty simple: Axis interdiction has a 25 unit distance limit, so on turn 1 the Axis can't even interdict the area we're building up. On turn 2, the Axis will probably interdict the Ardennes in the Meuse area, the Belgians and possibly the Dutch, or place 2 interdictions in Belgium or the Ardennes. As such, keep in mind that the single interdiction I've placed is in a pretty unlikely place as it would mean the Axis know what you're planning to do. Axis interdiction of your buildup area isn't likely to start until turn 3, at which point it will be too late.

I've used extended movement on the leading Panzer units to get them as far to the west as possible on turn 2. That means the Panzers are almost at the Meuse.

I haven't moved the majority of the Belgians, only those directly north/northeast of Brussels and those in Brussels because they're most likely to be able to move (the Axis interdiction is likely to focus on the Belgian divisions withdrawing from the eastern part of the country). The French armour division you see near the Belgian line will beef up the Belgians, I didn't move it to clearly show it (it could otherwise be hidden in Belgian stacks).

There's a large open area between the French armour and the Meuse, but the Germans are not likely to swing into the forest, and even if they do they're still quite some distance away from their objective. You could put more French troops in the Ardennes by placing British units in the French line west of Charleroi. The French heavy artillery in the Ardennes is more or less guaranteed to slow down the Panzer and supporting units significantly, with an OP penalty of 3 and a 1 hex radius. The Panzers will in most cases not reach the line until turn 4 or 5/6 (in the north), so you have some more time to sort it out. Also keep in mind that the French motorized divisions in the south wake up on turn 3, so you'll soon have more units in the area anyway.

You might not be able to see it, but almost the entire Allied line is under an AA umbrella.

The weakest stacks in the Allied line have a defensive strength of around 20 and 1 AT defence. Panzer divisions have varied strengths of around 55 to around 75. Keeping in mind that the German artillery will take a while to catch up, which means that the French get an artillery bonus and due to detachments the Germans won't always get a tactical shift bonus, you can see why the line isn't really going anywhere until the German infantry arrives or until the Germans focus on one point.

I've used the latest version released by Brubaker, version 1.12. If you have problems reproducing my moves, please indicate what the problem is.

Turn 1:

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Turn 2:

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For clarity's sake: I attacked critter's Panzers at the position the southern part of the British line is in now. As you can see, the Allies can reach it on turn 2.
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Postby critter » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:44 am

Abwehr wrote:[The reason why I'm not going to play against you again is pretty simple: no matter what happens, you'll always blame it on me or proclaim something is ahistorical. When you advance with your Panzers without anything supporting them, you'll cry foul when they're attacked and destroyed. You'll find something to blame, anything except your own strategy. You're also rude and childish (the problem is always something unrelated to you), which goes to show that although you're a lot older than me, your manners are often less mature. Considering that you will never be capable of blaming yourself for the mistakes you would make, I have no intention of playing against you again, as it's a lose-lose situation for me and a waste of time.


Ok "KID" genius..You know it all. ( not being rude, thats what they call him @ wargamer mag.)
Go ahead and change the CRT's and stenghten the Germans. Continue to make the Germans stick to the 40 plan while the French freely give up parts of their country to support your obsession. In our "test" game I pointed out that you'd gone too far. Your having to now increase German strenght proves it.
As for the above I'll let my gaming record stand on its own.
The offer is still open. Any time you wanna try the Germans in one of your "updates" or the Allies in the original ring me up.

Got a feeling that ring like 30 Corp ain't gonna show.
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Postby Abwehr » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:09 am

Go ahead and change the CRT's and stenghten the Germans. Continue to make the Germans stick to the 40 plan while the French freely give up parts of their country to support your obsession. In our "test" game I pointed out that you'd gone too far. Your having to now increase German strenght proves it.


You like exaggerating, don't you? Where do the French "freely give up parts of their country to support my obsession"? See that border line on the map? It seems you don't.

As I said: the flaws in the scenario were either from the original version, or due to the BiI engine, less to anything I touched. Of course, you won't believe it no matter what, so this is pretty pointless.

As for the above I'll let my gaming record stand on its own.


And that record stands at you giving up one game, without having the slightest clue what went wrong, as you continue to blame everything on my changes.

The offer is still open. Any time you wanna try the Germans in one of your "updates" or the Allies in the original ring me up.


After showing my planned defence? Don't think so. You'd work on the perfect counter, probably by moving your armour towards a weak spot, and then proclaim to be so brilliant and how your superior tactics defeated me or the like. No thanks. You lost the first game, and turned out to be a poor loser, so the record remains at you: 0.

The original has an Axis bias due to the aforementioned flaws, so it would be natural that you'd only want to play that one against an Allied player.

So feel free to be a poor loser and continue to proclaim how I changed everything and that, although everybody now has visual evidence to the contrary, what I did wasn't possible in the original.

Meanwhile, I'll be working on porting this to Kharkov/ATD2.
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Fall Gelb v1.02

Postby spitfire » Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:49 pm

Hello,

Can someone please post a download link for version 1.02? Thanks!
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