Kharkov

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Postby Bertram » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:38 pm

A new terrain type, not only with greater odds needed, but also with bigger attacker odds. Lets say A3-D1 results, so you CAN attack, you CAN kill weak units, but at a high cost.

One of the problems with the DB series is the ability of the attacker to attack only there where he can get 10-1 odds, thus ensuring that the defender always looses more steps then the attacker. This is especially true in a high unit density scenario with heavy artillery. This is not good in its won, but really hurts against a defense on what should be very favorable terrain.
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Postby Gen Alexandra » Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:15 am

Bertram wrote:A new terrain type, not only with greater odds needed, but also with bigger attacker odds. Lets say A3-D1 results, so you CAN attack, you CAN kill weak units, but at a high cost.

One of the problems with the DB series is the ability of the attacker to attack only there where he can get 10-1 odds, thus ensuring that the defender always looses more steps then the attacker. This is especially true in a high unit density scenario with heavy artillery. This is not good in its won, but really hurts against a defense on what should be very favorable terrain.



Do not quite agree, as in our own current game of Kharkov, I am able to inflict damage and shift you off your perch(entrenchment) with low odds of 4-1, 5-1. It would depend on the terrain type your attacking of course.

I like the idea of the A3-D1 odd's, that would re-create some truism into river crossing.
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Postby BossGnome » Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:26 am

has anybody finished a full 49 turn game of Kharkov yet? If so, how did it go? How balanced did you find it? Criticisms? Comments? I am interested to hear people's thoughts on this.
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Postby Gen Alexandra » Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:50 pm

Not quite finished a full 49 turn game yet, but.......

#1 Turn 28 playing Russians and I am about to liberate KHARKOV, but it will take another 10 turns or so and I am expecting the SS Panzer Divisions to arrive somewhere soon.

#2 Turn 26 playing Axis and I have just lost Belgdano (is that right?) to the North of Kharkov, but hold Stalino.

The game (Version 1.00) is very well balanced with forces and strength and once (version 1.01) is released and fix's the bugs it will be even more balanced)

My only note of concern is the VP's still, which mean the Russians do not have to do a great deal to win the game points wise, they have no need to take Kharkov or Stalino and the game at present can be won in the opening 10 turns as there is not much the Axis force can to hold the hordes of Stalin off.

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Postby Noakesy » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:04 am

Gen Alexandra wrote:My only note of concern is the VP's still, which mean the Russians do not have to do a great deal to win the game points wise, they have no need to take Kharkov or Stalino and the game at present can be won in the opening 10 turns as there is not much the Axis force can to hold the hordes of Stalin off.

GA


My observation also, I'm at turn 15-20 with two games (both as Fritz) and I've lost on points, yet I have quite a good solid line in places many hexes from Kharkov. Now, this may all crumble in the near future, but it seems as though I virtually have to go on the offensive early-on to have a chance of winning.

Without giving too much else away either, could do with some anti-partisan units :cry:
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Postby Talos » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:32 am

Playing against Nashorn and turn 15 has just arrived where I am the Russians and Nashorn is the Axis.

The point score is alredy close to the OW win if not over it already, and most of the damage has been done in the south where I have jumped the river from Stalino up in the north by Izyun (east west, not the north south river). In addition I have just started getting troops accross the major river to the east of Izyun and in the far north Russian hordes are just rolling forward and have liberated Zakharovka last turn or turn 13 can't remember which.

Casualties are something like 40+ (inlcuding some descent Panzer troops) Axis to 4 Soviets so far. Now I don't know how the rest of the game plays out but if this continues for even another few turns I can't see the Axis forces bouncing back though I could be wrong, I realy need to play as the Axis as well to get a better feel for how balanced it is. But at the moment the VP situation feels unbalanced.

Also trying to ford the major rivers is a pain and its only becuase i manged to get some territory on the opposing bank which was not cut off that I have managed to do this at the first major river. Though Nashorn has done his best to slow me down with most of the bridges being blown and the Mech forces of group Popov have not had a great deal to do for the last few turns, though that may change in the near future.

I will post again about the game in another 10 turns or so as I may have some more observations then. :)
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Postby BossGnome » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:10 am

Well, let me be the black sheep then. My game against Bertram has just reached turn 40 and, despite massive axis losses (108 KIA), I have successfully managed in the south to hold on to Stalino, Yama, and even Pervomalsk (although I expect to lose it within 2-3 turns). I lost Voroshilovgrad on turn 20, which was too bad (really I had hoped to hold on to it until turn 21).
In the center I hold Iyzum, and Kamenka, around which my troops have been hiding in the woods for some time. Kupyansk I lost, and the highly destructive mobil group popov is facing the LAH and Das Reich division about halfway from Kupyansk to Chugyev. It doesn't look like Ivan will enter Kharkov. In the north, the Russians are at the door of Shebekino, Mikhailovka and Bobryusk, but the arrival of Totenkopf makes me fairly confident that they will manage to hold to the end of the game.

I think the key for the axis is to be very aggressive in the early game. Some people don't seem to realize this, but the axis actually has an artillery bonus (I believe it's +2) for the first few turns. They also have massive arty and air support which really dies down in the later game. Moreover, the Axis also gets two air strikes in the first turns, which, used wisely, can severely weaken the russians.

In both kharkov games I've played, I have found the Mobil Group Popov to be insanely robust, at least if mostly kept together. the germans have no real way of blunting their offensive. The best way to delay them I found to be the Tigers of the 5th SS. Even then, those were not enough to hold them back more than 5-6 turns.

For this scenario, I find the germans have a lot of advantages that people don't seem to use that much: first, their superior artillery. The sheer number of 2+ artys availible for use allows for strong attacks with comparatively small number of troops. Next, their superior Tanks. The soviets only have a few units capable of dealing with tigers. Of course, the germans only get 4 units of tigers in the entire game, but used wisely, these can cause heavoc.

As I said, my game is not over yet. So far, the KIA count stands at 108 Axis killed, to 169 Soviets. The VP count is 782 in favour of axis, with a predicted win of 1198 pts. That said, I think my actual vp count will be lower than that, my opponent is resourceful, tricky, and still has a few tricks up his sleeve. However, the axis are not in dire straits in this game.
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Postby Bertram » Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:21 pm

As soviet opponent of BossGnome I can add that the Russians are also almost out of men....

The major difficulty I am now facing is that my supply is at the end of its reach. Most of my supply units have a partly yellow line (at best) back to the basis. This might be related to the rail lines not working proper, as the minor roads seem to be to long to get proper supply form the map edge to the centre of the map for the Soviets.
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Postby Bertram » Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:37 am

Both my games against Bosgnome and Gen Alexandra seem to be on hold - where are the turns guys?

Against BosGnome the soviet troops are running real ragged, though they have an occasional punch left :). Alsmost at the end of the game, and Kharkov isnt in sight. Some last steps of the German units are blocking the last steps of my Russian units...

Against Alexandra we are in turn 26-28 somewhere. Both of us crossed the major river in the north, and have a spearhead near Kharkov. I have difficulties as Germans to keep a line, but Alexandra has lost a few more German units so in the reverse game he should probably feel that pain a bit more...
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Postby Talos » Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:02 pm

Well my first game against Nashorn finished after the Russians encircled the central group of German forces between the 2 major rivers and had pretty much chewd them up as they ran out of supply before we stopped. In the north Rssian forces had broken through what remained of the German line and were about 3 hexes from Kharkov before we stopped and in the south the German were in full scale retreat and were heading back to th western map edge. Total Geerman loses were well over 100 units while the Russians had lost 4 basically AGS front had totally collapsed this was about turn 25 when the game ended even the arival of the SS Korps would not have changed this, VP's were at something horrendous actual was about 1300 and projected was well over 2000 plus.

Am now playing the Germans in the rematch and the Russians have been stopped cold in the centre along the first major river. In the north the Russian are trying to get around the flank of the German units, but I still hold the major roads and the town I can't remeber the name of and the Russians are having major supply problems. While in the South the Germans have been counterattacking for about the last 10-15 turns and generally driving the Russians back and no VP cities have fallen. The Germans have a positive VP score and projected of when I last looked of about 1400. Casualties have been about 9 Germans and i guess about 40 Russians including a significant number of Guards Infantry. The SS Pz Corps is just starting to arrive and am now debating where to deploy it for most effect as I will be able to depoly it in full strength in one sector as the Russian offensive has pretty much run out of Steam.

From playing the two games i have come to the following conclusions.

1) The Germans have be both flexible in attack and defence and willing to give ground rather than loseing large numbers of units, but it has to be done in a controlled manor.

2) Take all opportunities to kill off Russian units where posssible but not so they lose their defensive positions and leave them selves open to counter attack.

3) Make maximum use of their artillery and try and build up forces in one sector.

4) Try and hold a bridge head in front of the first major river in the woods by Kamanski.

5) Hold the key locations or defensive lines and try and put Russians troops out of supply especially in the bad weather turns.

6) The northern sector is probale the most important for both sides and depending on how this goes will probable determine the course of the battle. If the Russians have the asendecny in the north it allows them to outflank the first major river line and force the Germans to retreat.

7) The use of Mobile Group Popov is important. Leaving them in the central sector is probale not the greatest use. In the game I played they got split into a number of elements. 3 or 4 were sent south, another 3 or 4 stayed in the centre and and the remaining were sent north. This is something that has to be thought about carefully as once they are committed in a certain sector its hard to move them else where.

8) The Russiand should always look to be attacking even if they are only getting low comabt odss generally, as long as they are killing off Germans at least as much as they are losing then the long term advantge will be with the Russians.

10) Try and keep all German units at 2 step strength as they are geneally most effective per step at this point, but build the Wiking PZ regiment up to 4 steps if possible.

11) Try and use the German carpet bombing facility in the open and against a 4 high stack of Russiand that preferably has only 2-3 steps per unit, this way there is a good chance that the entire stack will be destroyed with the attack.

12) Generally the Germasn can have plus on the Armour vs anti-armour shift so getting better dice rangs and the potential to inflict more casualties.

13) Try and keep it so the either via defensive terrain or units that each stack has at least 2 anti armour for the Germans which will help limit casualties, the stugs and German Panzer Regiments are especially useful in this regard.

Overall the game feels fairly balanced but I am not sure about the VP's in the south that the Russiand can gain, they probable need dialing back a bit but otherwise it comes down to the skill of the commander for probable who will prevail in each game for either side.

One final note for the Russiand use your carpet bombing wisley in the first few turns and try and use it in clear terrain though that is not a total given and when the SS PZ Corps arrives make sure you have sufficient forces in each sector to stop a counter thrust.
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Patch?

Postby critter » Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:28 am

What's the word on the patch? And will it fix the crash problem vs the AI?
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Re: Patch?

Postby JSS » Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:39 pm

critter wrote:What's the word on the patch? And will it fix the crash problem vs the AI?


Leo will have to answer this question. There's a draft patch but it doesn't address scoring/balance.

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Postby fjell75 » Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:58 pm

Where can I find the latest version of this scenario? Can't find it on the download-page.
Is it the one called "Last Victory in Russia" ?
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Postby Rodwen » Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:28 pm

fjell75 wrote:Where can I find the latest version of this scenario? Can't find it on the download-page.
Is it the one called "Last Victory in Russia" ?
Anders :D


yes
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Postby fjell75 » Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:35 pm

Ok! Thanks. :)
Is there a newer version than the one posted there 1.00?
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