Patton Master of Battle for Battles in Italy

Discussion relating to Battles in Italy

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Patton Master of Battle for Battles in Italy

Postby JSS » Sat Jun 04, 2005 10:34 am

Please use this thread to post comments on Patton2. There were at least 50 small updates, several significant updates, and inclusion of BII feature for bad weather CRT.

Key updates include:

1. Several terrain settings changed to match map.
2. German supply trucks burst supply.
3. Supply sources don't burst as far off road.
4. Rail network fixed.
5. OOB tweaked.
6. Arrival schedule and jump hexes tweaked.
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Postby Islander » Sat Jun 04, 2005 10:48 am

Robjess and JSS,

Goodness boys, you're updating and releasing new scenarios faster than I can even look at them, never mind play them. :D

I downloaded BII the night it came out and haven't even been able to look at the 3 scenarios, never mind play a game.

Of course, there are worse problems to have.

You guys are great. :)
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Postby Robjess » Sat Jun 04, 2005 10:52 am

JSS is doing all of the hard work, all I am doing is publishing em!
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Postby Kingpin » Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:03 pm

Has there been much discussion of the balance in this scenario?

I am playing three games of Patton under the BIN engine. Its seems to me that the Allies have too much power especially in the second half. Also I feel the Allied airborne units should be delayed at least 3 or 4 more turns.

Four carpet bombing resources per turn (with the exception of the night) seems a little extreme plus +2 or +3 art bonuses.

In my opinion the Russians should receive carpet bombing resources for at least a few more turns in the beginning and then one every couple turns thereafter till the end of the game.

Please don't take this as negative as I really appreciate your efforts and I have enjoyed playing on both sides.

I really enjoy catching an opponent in a farmland hex. If there is enemy artillery in the area you can get overrun odds at 4-1, 5-1, 6-1. This can be deadly as many times I have reduced a four step unit to zero WITHOUT carpet bombing as there is not a retreat option at that level. Its even better if you can get a +1 tank/anti-tank bonus.

At any rate, I think the scnerio could be tweaked further. Thoughts?
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Postby JSS » Thu Jun 09, 2005 7:05 pm

kingpin wrote:Has there been much discussion of the balance in this scenario?

I am playing three games of Patton under the BIN engine. Its seems to me that the Allies have too much power especially in the second half. Also I feel the Allied airborne units should be delayed at least 3 or 4 more turns.

Four carpet bombing resources per turn (with the exception of the night) seems a little extreme plus +2 or +3 art bonuses.

In my opinion the Russians should receive carpet bombing resources for at least a few more turns in the beginning and then one every couple turns thereafter till the end of the game.

Please don't take this as negative as I really appreciate your efforts and I have enjoyed playing on both sides.

I really enjoy catching an opponent in a farmland hex. If there is enemy artillery in the area you can get overrun odds at 4-1, 5-1, 6-1. This can be deadly as many times I have reduced a four step unit to zero WITHOUT carpet bombing as there is not a retreat option at that level. Its even better if you can get a +1 tank/anti-tank bonus.

At any rate, I think the scnerio could be tweaked further. Thoughts?


Kingpin,

Am always interested in constructive comments :D Will look at these closely.

Agree that Allied air goes to total air superiority a little too quickly :twisted:

Also am seeing the German units come to life a little too quickly also...

---------------

IMHO this is the most complex DB scenario published... its also my favorite released scenario :D The game plays out very differently depending on how the Russian first 9 turns go. Against someone who does very well the Allies need a lot of help... if the Russian player doesn't create a crushing opening then things can go badly for the Russians...

The Uncle Joe's Advice scenario is probably the best scenario to play if the American player is more experienced than the Russian player. It does some things for the Russian player that need to be done the main campaign scenario (i.e. keep a strong reserve to deal with the airborne drop!).

Any interest in trying a fourth game to test this out :twisted:

JSS

PS Think the balance is well determined in the Rommel and MacArthur scenarios... due to the complexity of Patton I'm very interested in suggestions.... what was balanced in Patton at one time will become old data as time goes on.
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Postby Sgt. Pepper » Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:05 am

My comments on balance pertain to the BIN I version, so they may or may not be applicable to the new version. I’ve tried this twice, once as Allies & am on turn 5 as Russians in another game.

In my game as Allies, I thought they definitely had a strong advantage. Granted I’m probably more experienced than my opponent was, & he didn’t utilize his carpet bombers properly. But the Allied ability to put together devastating counter-attacks with fast ARM divisions, carpet bombers, and multiple +2 and +3 artillery shifts, is a sight to behold. Maybe a little too formidable. And the paradrop behind Russian lines on turn 6 turned into a killing spree against helpless supply trucks and support units. Several Soviet spearheads were also destroyed or badly bloodied. Basically, it was all over by turn 7 or 8.

And in my game as Russians, things are going OK as of turn 4, but it’s very difficult to catch & destroy retreating units, especially when the Allies can slow down all movement in & around Pilsen on turn 2 with interdictions. And though I may capture several cities within the “bonus” VP timeframe, it seems like every one of those objectives gives alert points to US or German units. No Soviet alert points until you get at least half-way across the board, regardless of how well you’re doing. Compare that to the Korsun pocket scenario, which gave alert points to the Soviets for capturing main objectives quickly, and tended to award points to the Axis as “punishment” for deviating from the official gameplan.

I figured out too late for my game that there’s a way the Soviet paradrop can automatically capture Karslbad on turn 1. I’m not sure if that’s intentional or an oversight, but it’s sure to become a standard opening for players familiar with this scenario. On the other hand, maybe that shifts the balance back to the Soviets a little. I’m absolutely dreading turn 12 when the Allies get to drop an entire paratroop CORP behind my lines. :shock:

All in all, this is a terrific scenario, but is maybe a little too hard on the Soviets. Like I said, this may or not be the case with the BIN II version, which I haven’t tried yet.
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Postby Kingpin » Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:09 am

Sgt. Pepper touched on few other points that I agree with as well. I was heavily penalized when the 3rd armour was triggered (and the 6th armour) for the Allies. +40 attack value for each tank regiment!!! When I did pick up enough alert points as the Axis I only got a weak infantry division +8 attack, 10 defense.

As for the standard opening I prefer to drop in the north and south as you can kill about 5 arty's units if all goes well. I feel that given the counterattack opp's as the game goes on for the Allies, the less arty they have, the better.
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Postby Kingpin » Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:53 pm

JSS wrote:Any interest in trying a fourth game to test this out :twisted:

JSS


Sure lets give it a go. Battles in Italy version. I still want to play as the Axis. I like to keep banging my head against the wall until I get it just right.

What has been updated to make it more balance if anything?
Last edited by Kingpin on Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby JSS » Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:06 pm

kingpin wrote:
Sure lets give it a go. Battles in Italy version. I still want to play as the Axis. I like to keep banging my head against the wall until I get it just right.

What has been updated to make it more balance if anything?


Send away if you want to play now (unsecure)... haven't heard anything definite on patch release date (soon is the answer from Matrix... 1 week, 2 weeks, a month?)

Changes and updates were put in to refine existing scenario. On the +Allied side, the German supply units work :D ... on the +Russian Side there are a number of very subtle changes... Russian rail movement is better, some units start in truck mode for turn 1, and supply burst is lessened for both sides (helps Russians more methinks).

The Uncle Joe's Advice scenario also helps the Russians a lot!
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Preview of Patton v1.01

Postby JSS » Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:08 am

Attached here is Patton2 v1.01. Both the main campaign and the Uncle Joe's variant have been updated as follows:

Changes for v1.01:

1. Number of carpet bombs per turn reduced (both sides).
2. CRTs updated to force retreats for overruns (lower odds CRTs were allowing overruns without retreating… very deadly situation).
3. Night attacks are more difficult to do (negative tactical shifts for night terrain).
4. US and German air defense reduces Russian interdiction value to 1 OP per hex.
5. US and German interdiction quantity reduced.
6. US and German partisans affect smaller area.
7. German refit value reduced to 100%.
8. German tactical shifts are more effective when attacking.
9. Russians get air interdiction longer.
10. Russians get ground interdiction throughout scenarios (reflects effect of small units by-passed during Allied counterattack).
11. US special artillery bonus reduced.
12. US gets less air combat and barrage shifts.

Would like to test the main campaign a little more before it becomes the standard download version. If anyone is interested please send me a PM with your email address.

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Last edited by JSS on Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Preview of Patton v1.01

Postby Kingpin » Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:13 am

JSS wrote:Attached here is Patton2 v1.01. Both the main campaign and the Uncle Joe's variant have been updated as follows:

Changes for v1.01:

1. Number of carpet bombs per turn reduced (both sides).
2. CRTs updated to force retreats for overruns (lower odds CRTs were allowing overruns without retreating… very deadly situation).
3. Night attacks are more difficult to do (negative tactical shifts for night terrain).
4. US and German air defense reduces Russian interdiction value to 1 OP per hex.
5. US and German interdiction quantity reduced.
6. US and German partisans affect smaller area.
7. German refit value reduced to 100%.
8. German tactical shifts are more effective when attacking.
9. Russians get air interdiction longer.
10. Russians get ground interdiction throughout scenarios (reflects effect of small units by-passed during Allied counterattack).
11. US special artillery bonus reduced.
12. US gets less air combat and barrage shifts.

Would like to test the main campaign a little more before it becomes the standard download version. If anyone is interested please send me a PM with your email address.


Well I haven't seen your turn comeback so why don't we just try the updated scenario?

Send away if so.
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Postby JSS » Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:15 pm

Ok, got as many games as I can handle right now.
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Postby Sgt. Pepper » Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:41 am

Hi JSS,

I've been thinking a bit more about the balance in this scenario. I think the Russian paradrop on turn 1 is the real wildcard. If the Russian plays this scenario "blind," chances are the paras will alert a bunch of Allied units and will have a short life expectancy.

But if the Russian player "knows" the Allied setup, he can automatically take Karsbad & Degendorf on turn 1, or one of those cities plus the three big artillery units left unprotected in the open. That makes a big difference in how the rest of the game goes.

So the allied player is very vulnerable on turn 1 to a Russian player who has this intel, and can't do anything to stop it. How about letting the allied player move a few units first, like the Japanese in the MacArthur scenario, so the Russian doesn't know for sure where the artillery is, which objective cities are unguarded, etc?
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Postby RalphH » Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:24 pm

I'm interested in trying out the Patton scenario (version 1.01) for BII. I haven't even looked at it so I would prefer to play another person that is also new to the scenario
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Postby JSS » Sun Jun 26, 2005 1:43 pm

Sgt. Pepper wrote:Hi JSS,

I've been thinking a bit more about the balance in this scenario. I think the Russian paradrop on turn 1 is the real wildcard. If the Russian plays this scenario "blind," chances are the paras will alert a bunch of Allied units and will have a short life expectancy.

But if the Russian player "knows" the Allied setup, he can automatically take Karsbad & Degendorf on turn 1, or one of those cities plus the three big artillery units left unprotected in the open. That makes a big difference in how the rest of the game goes.

So the allied player is very vulnerable on turn 1 to a Russian player who has this intel, and can't do anything to stop it. How about letting the allied player move a few units first, like the Japanese in the MacArthur scenario, so the Russian doesn't know for sure where the artillery is, which objective cities are unguarded, etc?


Interesting ideas. Looking into how to implement something like this.

Agree completely with your assessment that the Russian airborne drops add a unique flavor to teach game. Haven't seen the Degendorf drop succeed yet (usually ends in debacle or near debacle)... haven't seen a Karlsbad drop (on the city)... think 4th Armored Division would quickly route the lightly armed paratroops at Karlsbad... the near Karlsbad drop for 4 artillery units and 2 regiments of 2ID is one of my favorites :twisted: ... playing against a double deep drop right now; this is creating unique challenges :( .
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