Karkhov as the new game engine?

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Karkhov as the new game engine?

Postby arkansasbob » Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:50 am

HI folks; My interest is in Normandy, not the Russian front. There are only 2 companies that have addressed this with any detail, and that's HPS and you folks. I have the HPS game and play it to death. As I was getting ready to buy the DB Normandy, as a change of pace, suddenly Battlefront came out, and then Karkhov, so I held off in purchasing the game till things settled down. Now, Brubaker has stated that this Karkhov is going to be the new standard. I want to know the following: 1. If I purchase the Normandy game, can I then "port" it to the new Karkhov engine? and 2. Would there be any
advantage in doing that, if it is even possible. Or, as I suspect, it would just involve too much work, for what you would get in return for porting it to Karkhov. Many thanks for those who can clear this up for me. BobL.
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Postby Roger Keating » Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:40 am

It is possible to upgrade Normandy to the Kharkov engine but it is definitely NOT recommended to anyone who has not had a considerable amount of scenario creation experience and also experience in the different iterations of the engine from Korsun -> Kharkov.

There are a number of scenarios planned to be put out in Kharkov that should keep players interested but a Kharkov scenario requires a great deal of attention to get it correct and a very good knowledge of the actual OB's involved. I doubt if one person could handle it on there own, which is the reason that help is always available from the various members in this forum.

Just remember, if the Normandy game was transferred through to Kharkov it would be a shell, and woud require the re-entry of almost all the data attached to every data structure in the game, including a few new ones.

But, of course, the simple answer is 'yes'.
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Re: Karkhov as the new game engine?

Postby Gregor Whiley » Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:52 am

arkansasbob wrote:HI folks; My interest is in Normandy, not the Russian front. There are only 2 companies that have addressed this with any detail, and that's HPS and you folks. I have the HPS game and play it to death. As I was getting ready to buy the DB Normandy, as a change of pace, suddenly Battlefront came out, and then Karkhov, so I held off in purchasing the game till things settled down. Now, Brubaker has stated that this Karkhov is going to be the new standard. I want to know the following: 1. If I purchase the Normandy game, can I then "port" it to the new Karkhov engine? and 2. Would there be any
advantage in doing that, if it is even possible. Or, as I suspect, it would just involve too much work, for what you would get in return for porting it to Karkhov. Many thanks for those who can clear this up for me. BobL.


A good question, and one that's difficult to answer right now. We do hope to redo our old games for the new Kharkov system and we'll have some more announcements on that front soon. As far as Battles in Normandy goes, it would require a fair amount of work to move to the new system, starting with the map which is a different scale. So certainly Normandy won't be first cab off the rank and you might be better off just buying the game as is, and enjoying it, as its still a great game.

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Karkhov as the new game engine?

Postby arkansasbob » Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:24 am

Thanks to both of you for your fast replies. I don't have anywhere near the mental equipment to do something like that. I'll just wait for awhile and see what develops. If I get tired of that, I might do what you suggested, and just buy the Normandy game as it is. Later, and thanks. BobL.
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Re: Karkhov as the new game engine?

Postby Noakesy » Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:55 pm

Gregor Whiley wrote: A good question, and one that's difficult to answer right now. We do hope to redo our old games for the new Kharkov system and we'll have some more announcements on that front soon. Gregor


Outstanding news :D
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Re: Karkhov as the new game engine?

Postby Gen Alexandra » Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:29 pm

A good question, and one that's difficult to answer right now. We do hope to redo our old games for the new Kharkov system and we'll have some more announcements on that front soon. As far as Battles in Normandy goes, it would require a fair amount of work to move to the new system, starting with the map which is a different scale. So certainly Normandy won't be first cab off the rank and you might be better off just buying the game as is, and enjoying it, as its still a great game.

Gregor


Are you saying that Divisional Games will be or cannot be made for Kharkov?

As I thought Battlefront/Kharkov was adaptable enough to handle many differing scales.

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Postby Roger Keating » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:22 am

The comments about Normandy requiring a great deal of work has to do with the way the database is treated in Kharkov, which is light years (metaphorically speaking) from Normandy. It has nothing to do with Divisions, Corps or other army designations.

In Normandy there were only divisions and a lot of units that had little, if any, structure about them. Kharkov uses a very strong structure to build it up. Again, in Normandy, the US forces could rescue the British and vice versa. In Kharkov the boundaries are rigidly enforced, as they were in the real action.

I hope this answers your question....
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Postby Gregor Whiley » Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:01 am

The Kharkov system is very adaptable. more so than Battlefront, because of the new way of handling Direct Fire, as well as many other improvements. What my post was referring to was the fact that it is easier to transfer an old scenario or game to Kharkov if the map is the same scale. Redoing and and repainting a map is a lot of extra work.

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Postby Gen Alexandra » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:41 pm

Sorry to labour a point here....

But the map scale dictates the the scale of the counters ? by importing a map, say from Normandy, the work (I appreciate its going to be quite a bit) would need to be done to make the counters representative of the divisional scale of Normandy.....or am I getting this wrong?
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Postby Roger Keating » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:59 pm

I think what Gregor is getting at is that discussions of this within the company have leaned toward a redone map to include additional features of the battle.

If it was done, it is not simply a case of taking the old game and modernizing it but looking at what we can now do. When Normandy came out there were restrictions to many of the map functions, including size, and of much of the data within the game. As these are now lifted we would have to bring it up to date.

As I am only a programmer, I can't me more exact than this, but it has been discussed in the past.
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Sounds Good

Postby critter » Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:02 am

But are we talking upgrading to Karkov Grand tactical or leaving it Regt sized?
Are there plans for two systems or all rehabed into one?
Either way Thank you for answering. We all look forward to any news you provide.
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Postby Roger Keating » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:20 am

What we have attempted to do with Kharkov is to make an engine which is as generic as possible. At any level approximations are going to have to be made.

A formation is never named a division, corps or any other name. It just has superior and subordinate formations. There is a limit of 12 units to any 'regiment' but the regiment is never called that in the game and can represent any level of unit.

A scenario designer has to look at the game engine, and its limitations, before going into the design/development phase but that has always been true.

Personally, I am still hoping someone will do a Crete scenario, which is a favorite of mine, but I don't have the time, or the skills, to do it.

I think the problem is to look at what SSG is currently putting out and thinking that the engine is designe for that scale. When designing the engine we try to put as much flexibility into it that it is more the imagination, time and effort that are the limiting factors.
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Postby Brubaker » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:41 am

I think for SSG to port over the game would mean they would end up with a battle that looks nearly exactly the same as before (ie. little 'new' appeal) but still require the same amount of work to create (ie. it would be a near full rewrite). So really, for Normandy to be done it would best be on a whole new map at perhaps a slightly smaller scale to allow the full use of the new features of the engine.

Perhaps this is a project for one of the forum scenario designers to embark on?

I still hear your cries for Crete Roger - I was in Canberra last week and was doing some research in the War Memorial on this very battle. I too am fascinated by it... If only days had 48hrs in th+em instead of 24.
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Postby Roger Keating » Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:21 pm

And then there's a marriage to keep up, kids, etc. so I feel that I should return to my cloning research ...
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Invasion of the game inventors

Postby critter » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:14 pm

Roger Keating wrote:And then there's a marriage to keep up, kids, etc. so I feel that I should return to my cloning research ...


Ah the clones..... Roger I have some seed pods that you put under your bed. When you wake up you'll feel better. No worries, no emotions...
Welcome to the hive...... :lol:
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