Normandy Revisited (AAR #2)

Discussion relating to Battles in Normandy

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Postby Joe » Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:48 am

Twinkle wrote:

i.e., just do what I am sure you already are doing each turn in KP, check your units info before moving.



Twinkle - I need your advice - please explain further

Generally, this thead is now very long - and its hard to download. It might be an idea to continue this AAR in a new thread.
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Postby Twinkle » Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:27 pm

Joe wrote:
Twinkle wrote:

i.e., just do what I am sure you already are doing each turn in KP, check your units info before moving.



Twinkle - I need your advice - please explain further

Generally, this thead is now very long - and its hard to download. It might be an idea to continue this AAR in a new thread.


Thread length has no impact on download time at all, the only stuff being downloaded from database tables etc. are the few posts that show up on your screen.

So you know that an unit gets a number of Basic OP and a number of extra OP if the unit is in supply (per turn). The extra OP that comes from supply is the only OP that can be saved between turns (building up your reserve), but the Basic OP's are the ones first being spent in a turn. So you always start by spending the number of Basic OP's received, after that check your current OP reserve and decide if you need to fuel up for further turns or if you are on spending mode. We talked a bit about doing two or more attacks against the same hex in another thread, and an essential piece for that to work is that your units can move maximum distance and attack. Maximum distance is practically always a lot longer than the maximum number of OP that you can receive during one turn (especially so for the important recon units), so you need to be protective about your OP reserve even in KP, and as mentioned before, even much more so in BiN.

Best regards
/twinkle ;)

Note; I have already to many games going, so no more challenges for a while, please...
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Postby Joe » Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:24 pm

You seem to be saying there is a Third Way. I only know Two Ways;


1. Move using normal mode. This saves Ops and allows further actions in the same turn, such as digging in, attacking etc.

2. Moving using extended mode – which uses a lot of Ops and does not allow a second action.

You have a Third Way which seems to read:

-Each turn you receive basic Ops and ( if in supply) extra Ops
-If you don’t use the extra Ops you get to save them for the next turn.
-On the next turn, a good player will start by using the extra Ops first.
-Subsequently, on the same turn, the player can still follow one of the Two Ways I mentioned above.

And so the good player gets an advantage over the rest of us.

I always got that impression way back in the days of TAO2. But I still have not figured out the mechanics.

I have never figured out how to read the Ops pop up screen - it ought to have Basic Ops and Extra Ops but instead it has lots and lots of info.

I'll have a play around tonight.
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Postby Twinkle » Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:52 pm

Joe wrote:1. Move using normal mode. This saves Ops and allows further actions in the same turn, such as digging in, attacking etc.


No, you can only save as many OP's as you receive as extra in supply OP's. The Basic OP's can never be saved!!! If you move the maximum move (without doing extended move) you are using OP's from your reserve and are not saving up, so your statement above is wrong.

And I don't have a third way; I have the same as everyone else, only thing being that not all are using the available info.

We all know that Pz units in the Wolf scenario have 6 Basic OP's per turn and 6 extra OP's per turn they are in supply. So let’s say that we have an reserve of 6 OP's before the turn start. You will then see that the unit can move for 18 OP's and fight. If you move 18 OP's you will during your next turn have 12 OP's as max move plus fight as you spend all your reserve, if you instead move 12 nothing happens with your reserve and you can do a long move/attack during the next turn. If you move for 8 OP's, 4 OP's will be added to you reserve that will go up to 10 and allow you to move for 20 OP's (if that is max move) and fight the turn after. THE THING THAT WORKS IN KP is that if you click on the extended move button without having any OP to expend you get "MAGIC" OP's to spend, not so more with the excellent game engine that you will get with BiN.

Regards
/twinkle ;)
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Postby Brubaker » Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:49 pm

Isn't it strange how the more you talk about something simple, the more complex it gets? :wink:

In BiN Joe it is going to be very simple. A units OP capability is in 2 parts - Basic OP's (automatic) and Delivered OP's (Supplied this turn).

Forget Basic OP's. Every unit gets them each turn regardless of supply. They are usually enough for units to move 1 or more hex per turn.

Delivered OP's are just that - delivered. Think of them as fuel. If you are not in supply then you do not get them. If you are in supply then you get them. If you do not use them (by using extended movement etc) they will be stored in the unit as a reserve (to a maximum figure). This reserve is represented as a fuel guage on the unit counter. green/yellow/red

If you use extended movement, the extra movement part comes from these delivered OP's. The fuel guage will literally drop down from green to yellow to red. So naturally you can only use extended movement if you have delivered OP's handy - the more the better. Therefore the more you stay in supply and the less you use extended movement during a game, the more quickly this reserve builds up.

A unit that has its maximum reserve of OP's stored up is obviously in a better position of using extended moves for 3 or more turns. A unit that has no reserve OP's because it has been using extended movement a lot, will struggle to move as easily and into difficult terrain. It is easy to become stranded this way.

Hope this helps.
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Postby Gregor Whiley » Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:59 pm

panzmatt wrote:Thanks guys, how close is to the front lines is on the front line for the above supply affect? Can I tell when I am draining my op reserves in a specific move, ie 6 road hexes are ok, the 7th draines 2 points ??



Thanks again, like most of these changes looks great... added levels of complexity while hopefully maintaining that crisp fun easy playability we love about this series.


From the manual:
To qualify for an Automatic Refit a unit must:
1) Not rely solely on Basic OPs
2) Start the turn on a supplied hex
3) Not have used its Action Capability the previous turn
4) Not have been attacked the previous turn
5) Not be adjacent to enemy units this turn

Important Note: In a turn, if a unit qualifies for Automatic refit, and it has a step or steps with timed replacements, then the wait time for those step(s) will be reduced by two rather than one.

Also, above the unit's movement bars in the Unit Display area is a Reserve OP gauge. You can see how many Reserve OPs you have, how many of those you can spend this turn and if you use them to move, you can see them being spent.

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Postby chris miller » Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:44 pm

I'm hoping the delay in this AAR means that BiN is nearly finished. And when I say nearly finished, I actually mean nearly finished.
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Postby Joe » Fri Aug 13, 2004 4:52 pm

Gregor Whiley wrote:
From the manual:
To qualify for ..............then the wait time for .......will be reduced by two rather than one.

..........Reserve OP gauge

Gregor



My reserve Op gauge is full. How do I qualify to reduce the waiting time for release of BIN? :twisted:
Last edited by Joe on Fri Aug 13, 2004 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Gregor Whiley » Fri Aug 13, 2004 5:32 pm

Joe wrote:
Gregor Whiley wrote:
From the manual:
To qualify for ..............then the wait time for .......will be reduced by two rather than one.

..........Reserve OP gauge

Gregor



My reserve Op gauge is full. How do I qualify to reduce the waitng time for Release? :twisted:


It's not a wait for release, it's a reduction in the time you have to wait for Timed Replacements to take effect.

For example, I have a British Infantry unit with a step loss and 5 turns for the arrival of its Timed Replacement.

I take it out of the front line, and arrange things so that it fulfils the requirements for Automatic Refit. On the turn that it would get an Automatic Refit, even if the OP reserve is full, the wait time for the Timed Replacement goes down by two, not one.

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Postby Robjess » Fri Aug 13, 2004 5:32 pm

The delays in this AAR are actually due to me and not Roger or SSG. The amount of time I have available to have my turn and do the write ups is directly related to how busy I am at work. But, its Friday PM now, and we generally see a few turns posted over the course of the weekend..

And yes the game is very close now... early today I spent some time playing against the AI as the Germans.. and I can tell you that the Allied AI is very challenging.. in many ways its given me more trouble then Roger has in this AAR! So I think you will all mostly be quite impressed with the AI in BiN..
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Postby Robjess » Fri Aug 13, 2004 8:48 pm

Back to the issues and problems on the front:

Roger is making a move around the West of Caen - and this has caused me to pull a division away from Caen to try and top it.

Image

Things are not looking good at St Lo either.. I have pulled back slightly and the town is now under direct assault from Roger's allies.. Whilst I have a fresh Inf division on its way to the area - I expect it will fall in the next turn or two..
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Postby Bertram » Fri Aug 13, 2004 10:20 pm

Rob (or Roger),

Nice AAR, I spend a lot of time reading it :).

How is the game coming along timewise in relation to history? It seesm that it is fairly historical in so far that the British have a lot of trouble getting anywhere. But how are the Americans doing in comparision to the real thing?
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Postby Joel137 » Fri Aug 13, 2004 11:29 pm

Robjess wrote:And yes the game is very close now... early today I spent some time playing against the AI as the Germans.. and I can tell you that the Allied AI is very challenging.. in many ways its given me more trouble then Roger has in this AAR! So I think you will all mostly be quite impressed with the AI in BiN..


Are you saying Roger has programmed an AI smarter than he is?? :o
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Postby Twinkle » Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:53 am

Bertram wrote:How is the game coming along timewise in relation to history? It seesm that it is fairly historical in so far that the British have a lot of trouble getting anywhere. But how are the Americans doing in comparision to the real thing?


It seems to me (without really studying the historical maps) that the US are advancing with a little bit hastier speed, but are on the other hand paying for that by loosing a lot of units as well as combat steps. So it's seems to play out nicely in this AAR. However (and this is also something I mention without really study the thing as much as I ought to, and by that I mean that most if my BiN testing has been on TAO4), the US did have a real lack of combat infantry men (forcing 20000 airplane folks to do soldier work at the frontline, not really the thing they wanted to do), so I hope that it is painful as well for the US to take to much losses by pushing to fast.

Regards
/twinkle ;)
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Postby Roger Keating » Sat Aug 14, 2004 9:37 am

This turn the push to the South of Caen is going to cause Rob real problems. The terrain is very difficult which is good for me as counter-attacks are harder to mount. It is hard to believe the effect a couple of D2's can have on you. I launched a 1.5 - 1 attack to have a 50% chance of getting across the river to the North but failed. I figure that it is worth trying to create a Northern bulge to spread the German line out even further.

Image

Around St Lo it is hard going, basically launching about 6 attacks a turn and hoping for some good rolls to exploit. The line has been pushed back in a couple of places but is still very solid.

Image

Also, I program the AI to be flexible. In any given turn it will basically do the same thing, so I can replay turns where it has completed some stupid act and ask the units why they do it. Sometimes the answers are surprising as the logic is often very good, and just needs a bit of tweaking.

I am very happy with the new bombard/invasion routines as they seem to be able to do as well as I could in those crucial early landings. It is playing well at the moment and should be finished very soon so that others can pass judgement on the game.
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