Normandy AAR

Discussion relating to Battles in Normandy

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Postby Joe » Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:32 am

The new pop up feature is interesting.

When I make an attack I start by hitting “max” and then remove all the units possible and attack with the fewest no of units necessary to achieve the desired result.

As I change the odds, does the pop-up change to reflect the current odds?
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Postby Roger Keating » Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:28 am

The action this turn was primarily around Caen where 4 British units do not need to worry about being supplied again.

Image

The British units are now caught between the city and the advancing Germans and it will be interesting to see what Rob's tactics are going to be next turn. Also the arrival of the 1SS will see some needed power added to the German attack. A couple of engineers are currently in action fixing up the rather damaged bridges in the region so, with a lot of good luck, Rob can form a nice line on the other side of the river and I will let him keep the beaches.

In another small area, Cherbourg, the scene is thus...

Image

The harbor is now not a supply source and the supply truck is now not available as it hasn't reported back as yet but a small dump in the city is able to keep the men fighting for a few more turns. An extract of the last message sent through to the men on the front line follows 'Hold on guys, reinforcements are coming'. No sense in letting facts getting in the way with morale raising excercises.
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Postby Joe » Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:07 pm

Roger Keating wrote:In another small area, Cherbourg, the scene is thus...

....but a small dump in the city is able to keep the men fighting for a few more turns. ....

.


How can the German player tell this is so?

Can the Allied player see this as well?
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Postby Roger Keating » Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:36 pm

The popup for the dump at Cherbourg is....

Image

From this you can tell from the boxes in the top left that it is acting as a dump as the trace has failed. On the right is the indication that there are 6 turns of supplies left but they don't supply trucks or replacements.

The burst is 12 OPs and this is done using supply movement so roads are very cheap but overland it won't go far.

If the Allies capture this hex the dump is automatically destroyed.

Rob can't see the details on this dump, although he can tell there is one in the hex.
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Postby Bertram » Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:28 pm

> The burst is 12 OPs and this is done using supply movement so roads are very cheap but overland it won't go far. <

How does this tie in with the AtD discussion on supply? Does this dump supply the whole map as well (till cut of), or is this problem solved?


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Postby Roger Keating » Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:37 pm

Using supply movement, and '0' cost for roads for that movment scheme, then every connected road will automatically be in supply across the whole map. This is one way of ensuring that arriving troops do not have to worry about supply.

A bit of interdiction and enemy action and the whole scene changes. Some supply trucks now supply using this movement mode and they are great for sitting well back from the front line and using their abilities.

For close up supply you really need trucks that use leg supply burst so that those difficult to get at areas can have bullets as well.

It should be cleared up that there are two supply states, tracing and bursting. Tracing is used by a supply truck to determine it's own supply state, and whether it can supply replacements or not. Bursting is the ability of a supply truck, or source, to supply the map hexes and allow units to draw supply.
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Postby Robjess » Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:19 pm

Im too scared to load up my turn now..
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Postby Twinkle » Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:04 pm

Roger Keating wrote:From this you can tell from the boxes in the top left that it is acting as a dump as the trace has failed. On the right is the indication that there are 6 turns of supplies left but they don't supply trucks or replacements.

The burst is 12 OPs and this is done using supply movement so roads are very cheap but overland it won't go far.


2 short questions... and a long suggestion regarding a few things. :)

Is the supply dumps supply expended if all units who potentially can draw supply from the dump get supply by some other way? and do we have road connection between all closely connected Urban hexes?

Regards
/twinkle (who think that it is way to easy to destroy an unit, units almost always survive even if the combat elements get dented, and it would be fun if units could be restored using one extra replacement point, as well as it would be fun if it was possible to disband a unit in order to get more replacement points, as well as it would be nice if combat makes a unit not get closer to gain timed replacements since the unit doesn't rest while fighting, as well as it would be nice if all combat has a 50% chance of causing an two turn timed replacement loss to the attacker, thus even forcing an successful attacker to rest after a while, thus making the attacking and destroying units part a little bit more realistic without added complexity of new rules or a lot of coding, THINK ABOUT IT!)
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Postby Robjess » Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:21 pm

OK here we go.. I have had some success this turn.. but next turn I expect things to be not so good..

Caen.. I advance further into the city.. I still havent taken the main objective hex though, its the one to the left of my troops (not the one that is encircled).

Image

I expect Roger to give my units that are in the clear a good thumping next turn. I had a choice - I could have attacked his units that were sitting in the clear.. or attack the city.. I went for an attack on the city.. infact I managed to attack the same hex 3 times! Thus killing of his units that were there.. here is a screen shot of the terrain around Caen (units removed from the map) which gives you a better indication of what is 'safe' territory and what is not.. you will notice that some of my units over the river are actually in urban hexes.

Image

My major success though came over at Carentan. What was initially going to be a probe turned into a major assault which saw the retreat of the German forces from Carentan itself.. my units quickly seized the city centre. The question now is, will Roger try and attack back or will he fall back. St Lo looks like it is within reach (yeah like it was last time!) - I have an ARM column heading that way now.. but I dont expect it to be undefended.

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Postby Roger Keating » Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:34 pm

Things are looking desparate from the Axis side. Talk about putting a bomb under Hitler has been going the rounds but no one is serious, yet.

The view around Caen is ...

Image

Killing British units doesn't seem to stop them. I think they have been breeding in England for the past four years.

I have driven some of the units back but I will need a lot of luck to drive them out of the area. Even throwing crates of tea behinds the lines has not hindered them. I will have to await further reinforcements and hope that the weather, luck or something comes my way.

Never to see that nice cafe in Carentan again.....
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Postby Manny » Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:33 pm

I'm curious to know what sort of attrition rate you are building up in the Caen Cauldron.

Can someone please give us a status report i.e. casualties on both sides and reinforcements expected.
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Postby Joel137 » Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:08 am

Twinkle wrote:
"It’s hard to simulate the fact that a couple of AT-guns effectively could stop a major advance in the bocage. 2nd ARM did a good work of resting for most part of the early weeks."

just want to add some on this... my point being that quite a lot of attacks just dead end stops if the first 5-6 Sherman tanks running down a road gets brewed up (not to be confused with getting a warm cup of tea). The crew of the next tanks to keep up the momentum might have second thoughts and realize that their likelihood off surviving is slight even if the attack ultimately would end up as a successful one... So it just dead ends stops. This is all terrain dependent so it doesn’t really matter if it's a company/battalion or regiment that does the attacking (face it, even if we commit 3 regiments to an attack in KP/BiN game terms, it is likely to be just one battalion from each regiment that does any fighting).

regards
/twinkle


Is this simulated by the dreaded "one" die roll which is the only thing that prevents a successful attack at times?

I think we sometimes forget that that is what the really unlucky die roll in the CRT columns is partly simulating.
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Postby Twinkle » Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:39 am

Joel137 wrote:
Twinkle wrote:
"It’s hard to simulate the fact that a couple of AT-guns effectively could stop a major advance in the bocage. 2nd ARM did a good work of resting for most part of the early weeks."


Is this simulated by the dreaded "one" die roll which is the only thing that prevents a successful attack at times?

I think we sometimes forget that that is what the really unlucky die roll in the CRT columns is partly simulating.


Yeah, and I do think that way as well... My point in this case was merely that that the US armored (or armoured if you like) divisions did very little of the work, during the first month or so, as well as that the Germans never even tried to infiltrate with Pz units in the Bocage (wonder why?). Another point that I try to press at occasion is that it seems a bit easy to press on an attack in all eternity. It cost guts and blood even during the easy attacks, and that's why we see constant fighting with the same units as well as an unrealistic number of killed units in this AAR. It is just nothing that forces an attacker to rest his troops, and thus creating the real life periods of relatively calm. The 1st Cav doesn't exist yet, but it sure looks like it (currently reading a nice book about them). The fuel cost thing only makes you rest troops that have moved long distances... it should be equally or more important to rest troops between attacks, and this is actually one thing that I think the PzC system handles a little bit better. Rest assure, I play only KP/BiN... :)

Regards
/twinkle
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Postby Joel137 » Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:33 am

I agree with your points. Particularly the "its too easy to kill units". I also appreciate your comments a few posts above regarding the issue of easy nature to kill units.

And some random off-the-cuff ideas presented for discussion

I wonder if there would be some merit to having all losses be timed replacements, but for such "generic" timed replacements for there to be a really long time for you to get them; 8-10 turns. And when a unit is killed (not in the red) it essentially could come back to life when its timed replacements reappear???

I think some good ideas are beyond the scope of BIN at this point, but for the next issue of DBWWII . . .

I like the idea of the 50% attacker getting a time replacement hit as well. Though I wonder if there would be a need with these ideas to have units have more than 4-steps (for a line unit). (Which would complicate the wonderful GUI displays that have been developed so far.)
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Postby pterrok » Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:51 am

You want to limit attacks? How about each attack/defense participated in reduces your division integrity by 10% and you only gain back 5% at the start of your turn? So you COULD go on for a while with the Wikings, but they would lose effectiveness if you keep hammering away with them.

People have complained about too many overruns--each one could use up X%--x is 2, 3 or what?--and so the units would get tired if you did three overruns in the same turn.

Now I'll let you figure out what to do when they get to 0% div int or for those independent units... :lol: I guess you just assign them a div int but with them the only unit in the division--but I think you lose the bonus in KP if you're the only unit left, so that would be more code changes...
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