OTP AAR Abwehr vs Lysimachus (no Lysimachus)

Discussion relating to Battles in Normandy

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Postby Amgot » Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:11 am

JSS wrote:
JSS, I asked you by email but we can as well discuss it here: what's your take on Abwehr's assertion that it's next to impossible to push back the Brits from their bridgehead east of the Orne in the first few turns?


Have successfully done this against a very dangerous opponent (and he very nearly did it to me in the mirror game). Took 14 turns to do... was very difficult (2010 understandment of the year on these boards). Also had some very open terrain West of Caen as a result... its a matter of balance and necessity. If you (as a German player) don't truly enjoy going toe-to-toe in all out assault, then Abwehr's assessment is correct. If the circumstances allow AND you have a high tolerance for risk, then the effort is worth it IMHO.


Yes, it's very well worth it indeed. Unfortunately, I've done the worst thing in this case: I hesitated for few turns, decided against it, then changed my mind and attacked. My half-assed attempts got the success they deserved i.e worn down panzer divisionen and British still solidly implanted east of the Orne. :(
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Postby JSS » Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:37 am

Abwehr wrote:What did that opponent commit for the defense east of the Orne and what, roughly speaking, was your dice roll average if you recall that? To me, it's just too risky to commit many forces to kicking an opponent back to the other side of the Orne, although I might try it in the future. A few good dice rolls by the defender can nullify a lot of progress as the game between you and Amgot has shown.


Forces were:

6 Abn Div,
3, 3CAN, 51 Inf Divs,
7, 11 Ar Divs

You are greatly mistaken in assuming a push back to the West Bank... this was (and is with Amgost) a question of grinding eliminated units back into the sea!

You are completely correct in that it must be accomplished quickly (took me until turn 14)... dragging out longer than that leads to a net advantage for the British (even losing steps at a 4-1 ratio will work out in the longterm British favor... unless UK units are eliminated).

Review shows first 10 turns with terrible dice resulting in a stalemate East of the Orne (6 Abn and some key regiments eliminated)... next four turns brought an exceptional run of die and elimination of all remaining divisions less 51 Highlanders. Many of the kills were brought on by a no retreat approach taken by my opponent... something I'm not allowing in the game with Amgost.

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Postby Abwehr » Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:58 am

If your opponent got a lot of his units killed, I can't say his defensive strategy sounds too great on paper. There is little to nothing to gain by staying east of the Orne if you know you're going to lose a fight in the area. As soon as your first regiments die and you only see more units approaching, get the hell out. Denying the Germans a few 5 VP/turn hexes is really not worth the sacrifice of 6 divisions.

Out of curiousity: what was the end result of the game? With a large part of the British army KIA, getting an overwhelming victory should've been quite possible.
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Postby JSS » Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:18 am

The last turn I have shows a turn 55 cease fire. At that point it was 5178 Axis lead... projecting to 5180 win :shock:

Thought it was a good lead but could easily have distintegrated into a draw... my defense was going to break (in places) by turn 60 and the historical free run would have been on.
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Postby Abwehr » Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:41 am

I'm happy to report that my game with Lysimachus will continue. I'll update the AAR tomorrow.

On an unrelated note, my game against JSS has started with some minor disasters for the German player in the first two turns as Allied progress has been quite rapid and deadly in some areas. It's the first and last game that I'll agree on a "the Allies don't have to land at Omaha on turn 1" rule where the 716th is too far away from the Commonwealth beaches to be activated and is activated by the American, not Commonwealth, landings.

JSS killed a regiment and an artillery unit before I could do anything with it, which I'm not happy with as I feel it's silly and somewhat gamey (after all: the reason the division has losses is because it fought against the Commonwealth troops at their landing beaches, so it should be activated on turn 1), but aside from a protest for the record, I have not objected to the move.
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Postby Abwehr » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:46 am

Turn 6:

Due to the weird glitch where you can sometimes see the battlefield from your opponents perspective when watching the replay, these end of turn shots are from the Allied perspective.

The Americans killed the Ost battalion I send to disrupt their supply lines, but aside from that more or less nothing happened, so there's little to talk about regarding this turn.

The line runs up to the coast east of Cherbourg and isn't really worth showing, you get the idea what's there.

Image

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Postby Abwehr » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:55 am

The frontline for turn 7 and 8 is virtually identical. I'll post screenshots if you want to see it, but not much is happening. Many of my units refitted OP's on turn 8 and didn't do anything else.

Turn 7 KIA: the Cromwell brigade you can see north of the independent motorized FJ regiment between GvB's recon unit and 3rd FJ in the first screenshot of turn 6.
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Postby Abwehr » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:38 am

Turn 9 was uneventful due to mud.

Turn 10 started with most of my units near Cherbourg being out of supply due to massive interdiction. Lysimachus killed 4 artillery units with a recon battalion. I had actually anticipated that he would do so, but I'm not used to scenarios where artillery has a defensive strength of 1, as I mostly play Kharkov. The single recon unit overran all of them, so I've lost 8 artillery shifts as they were mostly good units. That sucks, but I'll have to live with it.

I'll post screenshots at turn 11 again, the frontline hasn't moved much.

If the withdrawal from the Cherbourg area turns into a disaster, that part of the front might be in trouble. The loss of lots of heavy artillery sucks, but in all honesty: I can still attack about 3 times at +8 odds with the units I have, and I haven't really used my artillery yet. There are basically no attacks I can make that would be helped by a +8 artillery shift. I could get 10:1 against a stack, but then what? It would withdraw towards other enemy units. 152 for 36 points, that's a nice trade for him, but perhaps he'll eventually miss that recon unit more than I will miss my artillery.
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Postby JSS » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:43 pm

Abwehr wrote: ...On an unrelated note, my game against JSS has started with some minor disasters for the German player in the first two turns as Allied progress has been quite rapid and deadly in some areas. It's the first and last game that I'll agree on a "the Allies don't have to land at Omaha on turn 1" rule where the 716th is too far away from the Commonwealth beaches to be activated and is activated by the American, not Commonwealth, landings.

JSS killed a regiment and an artillery unit before I could do anything with it, which I'm not happy with as I feel it's silly and somewhat gamey (after all: the reason the division has losses is because it fought against the Commonwealth troops at their landing beaches, so it should be activated on turn 1), but aside from a protest for the record, I have not objected to the move.


Here's a quick follow up on the 716 ID activation. Omaha can be landed on turn 1 by both 1 ID and 29 ID without activating the 716th Div. Image below shows this.

- The turn 1 alert zones are shown in red outline below... an Allied unit must be in one of the hexes (inside the red outline) to alert the 716th on turn 1.

- The turn encirclement of Abwehr's units is depicted by the green arrows. This should result in an overrun and kill of both German units.

- Only recourse available to the German player is to reinforce/provide flank protection to the 736 Reg; example of this shown by blue lines.

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Postby Abwehr » Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:49 pm

I'd say the main culprit is the "trigger by enemy unit" rather than "trigger by enemy hex" function. I'm also not sure if the regiment of the 716th would've been saved if I had moved the PzG regiment of the 21st as shown, because the units in the hexes it would block already don't contribute a tactical shift due to the minor river in the area.

Moving the eastern regiment (and possibly the artillery unit too) one hex to the north and the western regiment one or two hexes to the east would solve the activation issue. It would also ensure the division won't be triggered by the Omaha landings.
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